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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 09:54 PM   #16
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

I for one don't mind RG 2011 semis, because when she won in 2012, I remember feeling like 2011 was just foreplay for that big moment. It almost felt like she wasn't ready in 2011. The loss that stings the most for me is AO 2013, and I'll put 2012 a notch lower on that list, because I believed that after taking out Kvitova, she would really have a chance to win, but then-I can't even remember the finale, but she ended up having no chances at all, so it's not like it was that big of an opportunity missed in the end. As for the earlier years, I did not follow her like this before 2011, although I followed tennis in general, and I was aware of her presence and her results (and I always liked her on some level). So, I'm not really fit to comment, but the overall sentiment would be underachiever before the shoulder injury-overachiever after the surgery
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 10:08 PM   #17
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

I don't like this thread. Underachiever implies failure of some sort. Overachiever implies some sort of luck, or lack of effort on the part of others.

Thanks, fed up......
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Neither. What you achieve is what defines you.
Maria's achievements define her as one of the world's most amazing women.
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #18
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by fed_up View Post
Neither. What you achieves is what defines you. Unless she beat someone or was beating by cheating, she got what she had been able to get.
^ this
I never liked the words underachiever or overachiever.
It's like those discussions:
"IF Seles hadn't been stabbed, Graf wouldn't have as many slams..."
"IF Soderling hadn't beaten Nadal, Federer wouldn't have a career slam..."
If, if, if. If Maria hadn't a shoulder injury she may have had more slams in 2009-10-11. But maybe she wouldn't have two or even one Roland Garros?
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #19
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by Tennisvampire View Post
I for one don't mind RG 2011 semis, because when she won in 2012, I remember feeling like 2011 was just foreplay for that big moment. It almost felt like she wasn't ready in 2011. The loss that stings the most for me is AO 2013, and I'll put 2012 a notch lower on that list, because I believed that after taking out Kvitova, she would really have a chance to win, but then-I can't even remember the finale, but she ended up having no chances at all, so it's not like it was that big of an opportunity missed in the end. As for the earlier years, I did not follow her like this before 2011, although I followed tennis in general, and I was aware of her presence and her results (and I always liked her on some level). So, I'm not really fit to comment, but the overall sentiment would be underachiever before the shoulder injury-overachiever after the surgery
Completely agree with this. The AO2013 was by FAR the most frustrating loss I've ever had in my time of stanning for Maria. Like, you play so awesomely in the early rounds and then come out and play so terribly when it actually matters? And Azarenka was not playing particularly well at that tournament, probably at about the same level she was at at the YEC 2012 where Maria routined her.

That definitely stands out as the one Slam above all others that Maria really SHOULD have won. I think I'm still not completely over it tbh Atleast with her losses at the Slams in 2011 and early 2012, there was a sense she was going in the right direction and that it was a work in progress, but that loss at the AO2013 just seemed so....unnecessary and illogical in the context of her previous 12 months and her form earlier in the tournament.

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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 10:47 PM   #20
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by Trih View Post
^ this
I never liked the words underachiever or overachiever.
It's like those discussions:
"IF Seles hadn't been stabbed, Graf wouldn't have as many slams..."
"IF Soderling hadn't beaten Nadal, Federer wouldn't have a career slam..."
If, if, if. If Maria hadn't a shoulder injury she may have had more slams in 2009-10-11. But maybe she wouldn't have two or even one Roland Garros?
True. There are ifs and buts about anyone's career. And you lose some that you were supposed to win and you win some that you were supposed to lose.
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 11:12 PM   #21
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Completely agree with this. The AO2013 was by FAR the most frustrating loss I've ever had in my time of stanning for Maria. Like, you play so awesomely in the early rounds and then come out and play so terribly when it actually matters? And Azarenka was not playing particularly well at that tournament, probably at about the same level she was at at the YEC 2012 where Maria routined her.

That definitely stands out as the one Slam above all others that Maria really SHOULD have won. I think I'm still not completely over it tbh Atleast with her losses at the Slams in 2011 and early 2012, there was a sense she was going in the right direction and that it was a work in progress, but that loss at the AO2013 just seemed so....unnecessary and illogical in the context of her previous 12 months and her form earlier in the tournament.
The most disappointing thing about that AO for me was how flat the match was. It's extremely rare that you see Maria play a match with zero intensity, and I felt like this was the case there. None of her usual fight and spark were present. I was just genuinely shocked after the match, and then pissed off at the lost opportunity, that tournament was really her's for the taking And to cap it all off, Li then had the worst string of bad luck in the finale and eventually lost to a pretty sub par (for the standards that she previously set) Azarenka
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 11:30 PM   #22
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

Maybe it depends on where you're from, but in the U.S., when an athlete is labeled an underachiever, the connotation is that the person didn't put in the effort to take advantage of the skills he or she had been blessed with. Someone who was lazy and wasted his or her talent.

Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth when talking about Maria. Yes, there have been moments over the years where I felt that Maria could have won more often. But when I step back and look over her career as a whole, I come away believing that she is the ultimate overachiever. Looking first at the 2004-2008 period of Maria, the high level of competition that she had to constantly battle against was really quite daunting. The Williams sisters at their peak, Henin and Clisters, tough veterans like Davenport, Mauresmo, and Pierce still lurking, the Russian wave of Kuzzy, Petrova, Demientieva, Myskina, Zvonareva, and Safina, and young up and comers like Ivanovic and Jankovic. And for Maria to navigate those waters and win 3 grand slams, 19 titles overall, and reach the number one ranking is mighty impressive to me. Yes, she had a number of tough semifinal losses during that time, but sometimes you just have to credit the opposition. And Maria also battled injuries in 2005 and 2007 that set her back. Overall, I think early Maria accomplished a lot.

Then we have post-shoulder Maria from 2009 to present. We all know what that injury has done to Maria. The DF explosion and decrease of serving velocity and reliability. It used to be one of the best weapons in women's tennis and Maria had to reconstruct it to be, at the least, serviceable and competent. And for her to work around those problems, take on a new wave of players in these past 5 years, develop herself as a clay wizard, and win 2 more slams, is one of the great reinventions in tennis history. That's not something an underachiever pulls off.

Plus, you analyze the criticisms about her game since she first arrived: the lack of good movement, the nonexistent net game, limited variety, and, later after surgery, the bad serve/DF problems. Add up those shortcomings and her having to play in the era of one of the best ever, Serena Williams, and several other hall-of-famers, coming back from serious injuries and you could say Maria really had the deck stacked against her for a chance at a long, successful career. So for Maria to have built a resume of 32 titles, including 5 majors, by the age of 27, while dealing with all those obstacles in front of her, jumps out to me as an astounding achievement in tennis history. She has greatly overachieved, given her circumstances, as far as I'm concerned. And that's what has made her my all-time favorite athlete. Gifted and talented, yes, but not as much as many others who didn't accomplish a fraction of what Maria has. But she has given every ounce of her being every time she's stepped on the court. Her endless effort and will is makes her special and she never accepted any limitations she may have in her game. A true legend.
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 11:53 PM   #23
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by Mexicola View Post
Maybe it depends on where you're from, but in the U.S., when an athlete is labeled an underachiever, the connotation is that the person didn't put in the effort to take advantage of the skills he or she had been blessed with. Someone who was lazy and wasted his or her talent.

Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth when talking about Maria. Yes, there have been moments over the years where I felt that Maria could have won more often. But when I step back and look over her career as a whole, I come away believing that she is the ultimate overachiever. Looking first at the 2004-2008 period of Maria, the high level of competition that she had to constantly battle against was really quite daunting. The Williams sisters at their peak, Henin and Clisters, tough veterans like Davenport, Mauresmo, and Pierce still lurking, the Russian wave of Kuzzy, Petrova, Demientieva, Myskina, Zvonareva, and Safina, and young up and comers like Ivanovic and Jankovic. And for Maria to navigate those waters and win 3 grand slams, 19 titles overall, and reach the number one ranking is mighty impressive to me. Yes, she had a number of tough semifinal losses during that time, but sometimes you just have to credit the opposition. And Maria also battled injuries in 2005 and 2007 that set her back. Overall, I think early Maria accomplished a lot.

Then we have post-shoulder Maria from 2009 to present. We all know what that injury has done to Maria. The DF explosion and decrease of serving velocity and reliability. It used to be one of the best weapons in women's tennis and Maria had to reconstruct it to be, at the least, serviceable and competent. And for her to work around those problems, take on a new wave of players in these past 5 years, develop herself as a clay wizard, and win 2 more slams, is one of the great reinventions in tennis history. That's not something an underachiever pulls off.

Plus, you analyze the criticisms about her game since she first arrived: the lack of good movement, the nonexistent net game, limited variety, and, later after surgery, the bad serve/DF problems. Add up those shortcomings and her having to play in the era of one of the best ever, Serena Williams, and several other hall-of-famers, coming back from serious injuries and you could say Maria really had the deck stacked against her for a chance at a long, successful career. So for Maria to have built a resume of 32 titles, including 5 majors, by the age of 27, while dealing with all those obstacles in front of her, jumps out to me as an astounding achievement in tennis history. She has greatly overachieved, given her circumstances, as far as I'm concerned. And that's what has made her my all-time favorite athlete. Gifted and talented, yes, but not as much as many others who didn't accomplish a fraction of what Maria has. But she has given every ounce of her being every time she's stepped on the court. Her endless effort and will is makes her special and she never accepted any limitations she may have in her game. A true legend.
Need to spread more rep. Anyway, every single word, from start to finish, deserves a big And personally, when I think of the word underachiever, it's not necessarily connected with the person not giving enough effort, it simply means that more could have been done with the skills that one possesses, and it wasn't due to a number of different factors
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Old Jun 11th, 2014, 03:38 PM   #24
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

IMO a couple of slams, AO 05 against Sarin (would've probably won against Davenport in the final, not even thinking about the possible future impact on this matchup).

AO 06 against Juju due to a controversial line call I think. Not sure how she'd fare against Momo, but I'd give her more chance than on grass.

RG 11 stung most because her level of play was crap and Li wasn't even playing great. And then came the sequel to it in AO 13 which was by far the worst collapse.

AO 12 and Wimbledon 11 were okay-ish because they Guest and Ludmilla were actually playing too good for Poova.
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Old Jun 11th, 2014, 11:07 PM   #25
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by Sharapower View Post
There seems to be valid arguments for both:

- overachiever, because she's not a "natural talent" like, say, Serena, Hingis, Henin or Vika in terms of strokes, "weapons", movement etc. Yet she made career slam and just won her 5th GS.

- underachiever, because her thunderous 2004 seemed to promise a record-breaking career in the tennis hall of fame...

So which one is it, so far, in your opinion?


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Azarenka and natural talent?
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Old Jun 12th, 2014, 08:47 AM   #26
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Azarenka and natural talent?

Incredible defense and movement. Clean, fluid shots albeit not super-powerful.

When she's fit enough, obviously.


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Old Jun 12th, 2014, 11:42 AM   #27
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Ot but i missed the Ludmilla thing, why do people call Petra that? Thx


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Old Jun 12th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #28
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Ot but i missed the Ludmilla thing, why do people call Petra that? Thx


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It was something in GM, I don't recall if some TV commentator called her Ludmila or what, it was something like that, and the Ludmila jokes began in the title of the result thread.
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Old Jun 12th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #29
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

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Originally Posted by Mexicola View Post
Maybe it depends on where you're from, but in the U.S., when an athlete is labeled an underachiever, the connotation is that the person didn't put in the effort to take advantage of the skills he or she had been blessed with. Someone who was lazy and wasted his or her talent.

Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth when talking about Maria. Yes, there have been moments over the years where I felt that Maria could have won more often. But when I step back and look over her career as a whole, I come away believing that she is the ultimate overachiever. Looking first at the 2004-2008 period of Maria, the high level of competition that she had to constantly battle against was really quite daunting. The Williams sisters at their peak, Henin and Clisters, tough veterans like Davenport, Mauresmo, and Pierce still lurking, the Russian wave of Kuzzy, Petrova, Demientieva, Myskina, Zvonareva, and Safina, and young up and comers like Ivanovic and Jankovic. And for Maria to navigate those waters and win 3 grand slams, 19 titles overall, and reach the number one ranking is mighty impressive to me. Yes, she had a number of tough semifinal losses during that time, but sometimes you just have to credit the opposition. And Maria also battled injuries in 2005 and 2007 that set her back. Overall, I think early Maria accomplished a lot.

Then we have post-shoulder Maria from 2009 to present. We all know what that injury has done to Maria. The DF explosion and decrease of serving velocity and reliability. It used to be one of the best weapons in women's tennis and Maria had to reconstruct it to be, at the least, serviceable and competent. And for her to work around those problems, take on a new wave of players in these past 5 years, develop herself as a clay wizard, and win 2 more slams, is one of the great reinventions in tennis history. That's not something an underachiever pulls off.

Plus, you analyze the criticisms about her game since she first arrived: the lack of good movement, the nonexistent net game, limited variety, and, later after surgery, the bad serve/DF problems. Add up those shortcomings and her having to play in the era of one of the best ever, Serena Williams, and several other hall-of-famers, coming back from serious injuries and you could say Maria really had the deck stacked against her for a chance at a long, successful career. So for Maria to have built a resume of 32 titles, including 5 majors, by the age of 27, while dealing with all those obstacles in front of her, jumps out to me as an astounding achievement in tennis history. She has greatly overachieved, given her circumstances, as far as I'm concerned. And that's what has made her my all-time favorite athlete. Gifted and talented, yes, but not as much as many others who didn't accomplish a fraction of what Maria has. But she has given every ounce of her being every time she's stepped on the court. Her endless effort and will is makes her special and she never accepted any limitations she may have in her game. A true legend.
Your posts can be compared to Maria's answers in terms of eloquence
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Old Jun 15th, 2014, 10:46 AM   #30
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Re: Is Maria an overachiever or an underachiever?

Maria would have won so much more if it wasn't for the injury.She just got better and better every year,more powerful.

I mean obviously her overall game has gone down,but I'm kinda happy she is moving better and dominating clay every year now.The serve is probably the most frustrating because it was so good back then,but it is what it is I guess.The slams that hurt the most must be A0 2005,I was 8 back then so I didn't really watch tennis,but I watched some highlights and she wasted easy match points and I think she would have won Davenport in the Final and A0 2013 was justLi Na played good,but seriously.I was so positive she was going to win it after Sloane won Serena and I thought that she was going to get revenge over Azarenka in the Final because Vika wasn't playing that good.And then that shitfest happened.

But I think if she didn't get the shoulder injury,then she would have retired by now.Didn't she always say she wanted to retire at an early age and when she got the shoulder injury she realized how much she missed and loves tennis.So if she retired early,we wouldn't have a chance to root for her now and I would have never been a fan of Maria because I first became a fan when I saw her play RG 2010 against Justine and I remembere being so sad for like days when she lost.So she's in a sense an underachiever and a overachiever,but actually she's not one of those things at all if you get what I mean
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