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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 05:42 AM   #16
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmanserve View Post
Hardebeck's problem is she went to college. She should have continued on the path she was on. Her game and strokes are unique. No college coach would have been able to continue developing her the way her previous coach could without making changes to her strokes which is always a huge gamble. Especially considering most college coaches really aren't very good coaches, they are just good recruiters. Even at Stanford which, by the way, like many other big college programs doesn't develop players. They have a recruiting program not a development program. ( Like most colleges) Playing college tennis doesn't always make players better.Infact, usually the player's game suffers big. The few players, and it's very few, that are actually turn pro after college are usually late bloomers or players that still train with their personal coach in the off season.
Yes
That was what I meant when I said that college probably wasn't the best for Hardebeck. She was doing well in challengers and I thought the pro tour would be best for her. I didn't necessarily mean that she will go pro after graduating
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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 10:40 AM   #17
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

College is definitely NOT the proper path to a professional tennis career. Note that the NCAA restricts practice to only 20 hours per week during a sport's season and further restricts such time to 8 hours per week in the off season. While college students have to withstand such limitations, those who attend tennis academies have virtually no time limits to their practice and lessons. Therefore, between ages 18-22 the player who did not go to college has FAR more experience, is much better conditioned, and is far better prepared for a pro career.

Consider all those European players who are pro stars in their teens. Had any of them gone to college most likely their careers would have been shortened. I dare say that had the Williams sisters gone to college instead of turning pros as teens, their careers would have been wiped out.
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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 03:12 PM   #18
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmanserve View Post
Hardebeck's problem is she went to college. She should have continued on the path she was on. Her game and strokes are unique. No college coach would have been able to continue developing her the way her previous coach could without making changes to her strokes which is always a huge gamble. Especially considering most college coaches really aren't very good coaches, they are just good recruiters. Even at Stanford which, by the way, like many other big college programs doesn't develop players. They have a recruiting program not a development program. ( Like most colleges) Playing college tennis doesn't always make players better.Infact, usually the player's game suffers big. The few players, and it's very few, that are actually turn pro after college are usually late bloomers or players that still train with their personal coach in the off season.
Bolded part exactly. She's not even a first striker as tie assumes. Actually she was very strong in rallies.

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Originally Posted by tie_breaker View Post
First of all, I think all college players have deficiencies, which is why they are not turning pro, in order to work on their game. There's such a big gap between college and the pro's, which is another topic of its own. This gap, I believe also exists between college and junior players.

Secondly, when you look at junior players, the rankings includes only American players, but we all know that most of the Division 1 college tennis scholarships are awarded to International players. So although there may be 12 to 15 blue chip Americans, when they compete at the college level, they are competing against the top 100 or so International players, who also chose college over turning pro.

Thirdly, players at the junior level are still growing and developing their games, and even at the college level, they are still developing their games. Therefore, player development is an ongoing process and game changer, even when a player is a professional. A top ranked junior player is by no means a finished product.
Looks like a good post except fails when applied to Krista.
How many did advance to semi of junior Slam and Hard Natl(twice in a row) and won ISC and EB back to back?

And this:

Indian Wells, CA, USA07 Mar - 08 Mar 2011
Qualifying Draw Singles Qualifying Draw Premier Mandatory Entry: WC Surface: Hard (O)
64 L H2H vs JOHANSSON, Mathilde (FRA) 6-4 5-7 3-6

Johansson was ranked 66 or something then.

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Originally Posted by hellas719 View Post
Yes
That was what I meant when I said that college probably wasn't the best for Hardebeck. She was doing well in challengers and I thought the pro tour would be best for her. I didn't necessarily mean that she will go pro after graduating
She was beating Keys in 2 as late as 2012. And yeah, maybe Stanford was her goal all along

Stanford fans should stop whining and be thankful that Krista chose Stanford. The difference between 2012 and 2013 Stanford team? Krista. Added another elite player and even in her regressed form it was enough to win them the championship.

Now back to retirement
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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 04:53 PM   #19
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

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Originally Posted by wta_zuperfann View Post
College is definitely NOT the proper path to a professional tennis career. Note that the NCAA restricts practice to only 20 hours per week during a sport's season and further restricts such time to 8 hours per week in the off season. While college students have to withstand such limitations, those who attend tennis academies have virtually no time limits to their practice and lessons. Therefore, between ages 18-22 the player who did not go to college has FAR more experience, is much better conditioned, and is far better prepared for a pro career.

Consider all those European players who are pro stars in their teens. Had any of them gone to college most likely their careers would have been shortened. I dare say that had the Williams sisters gone to college instead of turning pros as teens, their careers would have been wiped out.
This is a very good point!

I heard some of the elite schools try to bypass the practice limitations by having a team leader initiate conditioning programs (offsite?), but still...there's just not enough hours in the day to handle the student side.
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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #20
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fantic View Post
Bolded part exactly. She's not even a first striker as tie assumes. Actually she was very strong in rallies.



Looks like a good post except fails when applied to Krista.
How many did advance to semi of junior Slam and Hard Natl(twice in a row) and won ISC and EB back to back?

And this:

Indian Wells, CA, USA07 Mar - 08 Mar 2011
Qualifying Draw Singles Qualifying Draw Premier Mandatory Entry: WC Surface: Hard (O)
64 L H2H vs JOHANSSON, Mathilde (FRA) 6-4 5-7 3-6

Johansson was ranked 66 or something then.



She was beating Keys in 2 as late as 2012. And yeah, maybe Stanford was her goal all along

Stanford fans should stop whining and be thankful that Krista chose Stanford. The difference between 2012 and 2013 Stanford team? Krista. Added another elite player and even in her regressed form it was enough to win them the championship.

Now back to retirement
I knew talking about your girl Krista would get you to un-retire

What took you so long?

You're right about Krista considering that her regressed form she was able to take out Florida and who knows how much damage she did to others as she help lead the #3 doubles team with surprising upsets especially when considering those matches were decided 4-3

I am rooting for her to make a strong comeback. Her ranking has risen from not ranked to #39. It is noted that she lost considerable weight and so she must have ramped up her conditioning. Those factors and recent results are all a good sign that she is on the right track.
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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #21
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

I agree as well. But not all practice is good practice. adding more practice hrs and still not addressing, form and technical breakdowns, along with just basic good coaching is a waste. Sometimes less practice is better than practicing more and forming bad habits. Especially if the player still have goals in tennis beyond college. It always suprises me how little so many college coaches know about truly developing players or even basic singles and doubles strategies. Although most will tell you, they know it all. Take Baylor, the team is loaded with talent. ( Not that I am a Bear fan) Big strong and very athletic women. Yet, they usually play doubles like high school players. Basic understanding of net play isn't there. But its not the players because Baylor has a history of being horrible in doubles that goes many years back. Proof of the talent, is Baylor is currently 8-3 the 3 losses are from top 10 teams. 2 of which was 4-3 losses in which Baylor lost the doubles point. The other loss was pre Ema Birgic's return against Florida. Baylor does hold 1 win against #7 Northwestern 5-2. If they only knew how to play doubles, easily a top 10 or even top 5 team. I point out the doubles because it's the most basic and easiest to coach. I pick Baylor because I remember last year after an TAMU victory the TAMU coach was almost laughing at the what he called "weird" Baylor
coaching strategy that gave his girls like 17 net winners in a row. Even with that said, look out for that BU team, dispite the coaching and poor doubles play, purely because of the athletes.

Most college coaches seem to reading a how to coach manual and tries to coach every player with the same manual, yet Hardebeck is the prime example why that cannot be done. Every player is different with different strengths and weaknesses. Trying to paint everyone with the same brush usually weakens most of your players, especially unique players like Krista with unique strokes and abilities, or any aggressive player with pro potential, who don't really play like everyone else and plays so differently that it challenges the ability of the coach to effectively coach them. Usually what happens is the coach will only coach the player in what he knows. Which in college is a very limited knowledge. When I use to watch Krista play in the juniors and others would say, " look at her strokes, they're horrible", "How does she win?" I would always say, if you want to truly appreciate how good she is, don't focus on how she is hitting the ball, focus on where she is hitting the ball and what she is doing to her opponents. She is like a surgeon with the sharpness of her ball striking and placement of her shots. Not many college coaches would be able to continue to allow her to continue playing her game without changing who sh is, or be able to repair a breakdown back to the form it was or even improve on her way of hitting.Its a shame. I was truly looking forward to seeing her on the WTA tour. Still hoping she can keep it somewhat together until she leaves college.
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Old Feb 26th, 2014, 09:55 PM   #22
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

I remember a previous discussion that Fantic had mention how USC was able to take non-elite players and make them to better players. I really don't know what Coach Gallien does to give players that edge...so looking into this matter further.

Maybe Fantic could "unretire" again and provide better insight to how Coach Gallien really does it because I don't think what I found on FB (see below) tells the full story...


Practice session at USC...technique to help them rise to the top!!!
(Please excuse Sabs, down on the ground on the left...it was her 21st bday last night)




This is a skype session with Brad Gilbert, who was Coach Gallien's teammate at Pepperdine. The topic of discussion is "Winning Ugly"...I presume will give her players the edge to winning



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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #23
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmanserve View Post
I agree as well. But not all practice is good practice. adding more practice hrs and still not addressing, form and technical breakdowns, along with just basic good coaching is a waste. Sometimes less practice is better than practicing more and forming bad habits. Especially if the player still have goals in tennis beyond college. It always suprises me how little so many college coaches know about truly developing players or even basic singles and doubles strategies. Although most will tell you, they know it all. Take Baylor, the team is loaded with talent. ( Not that I am a Bear fan) Big strong and very athletic women. Yet, they usually play doubles like high school players. Basic understanding of net play isn't there. But its not the players because Baylor has a history of being horrible in doubles that goes many years back. Proof of the talent, is Baylor is currently 8-3 the 3 losses are from top 10 teams. 2 of which was 4-3 losses in which Baylor lost the doubles point. The other loss was pre Ema Birgic's return against Florida. Baylor does hold 1 win against #7 Northwestern 5-2. If they only knew how to play doubles, easily a top 10 or even top 5 team. I point out the doubles because it's the most basic and easiest to coach. I pick Baylor because I remember last year after an TAMU victory the TAMU coach was almost laughing at the what he called "weird" Baylor
coaching strategy that gave his girls like 17 net winners in a row. Even with that said, look out for that BU team, dispite the coaching and poor doubles play, purely because of the athletes.

Most college coaches seem to reading a how to coach manual and tries to coach every player with the same manual, yet Hardebeck is the prime example why that cannot be done. Every player is different with different strengths and weaknesses. Trying to paint everyone with the same brush usually weakens most of your players, especially unique players like Krista with unique strokes and abilities, or any aggressive player with pro potential, who don't really play like everyone else and plays so differently that it challenges the ability of the coach to effectively coach them. Usually what happens is the coach will only coach the player in what he knows. Which in college is a very limited knowledge. When I use to watch Krista play in the juniors and others would say, " look at her strokes, they're horrible", "How does she win?" I would always say, if you want to truly appreciate how good she is, don't focus on how she is hitting the ball, focus on where she is hitting the ball and what she is doing to her opponents. She is like a surgeon with the sharpness of her ball striking and placement of her shots. Not many college coaches would be able to continue to allow her to continue playing her game without changing who sh is, or be able to repair a breakdown back to the form it was or even improve on her way of hitting.Its a shame. I was truly looking forward to seeing her on the WTA tour. Still hoping she can keep it somewhat together until she leaves college.
You're SO spot on Krista You almost make me think of unretirement
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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 06:21 AM   #24
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

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Originally Posted by Bigmanserve View Post
I would always say, if you want to truly appreciate how good she is, don't focus on how she is hitting the ball, focus on where she is hitting the ball and what she is doing to her opponents. She is like a surgeon with the sharpness of her ball striking and placement of her shots. Not many college coaches would be able to continue to allow her to continue playing her game without changing who sh is, or be able to repair a breakdown back to the form it was or even improve on her way of hitting.Its a shame. I was truly looking forward to seeing her on the WTA tour. Still hoping she can keep it somewhat together until she leaves college.
I am now even more curious how she developed her strokes. I am guessing it was self taught or maybe her parents.
It reminds me of baseball pitcher Tim Lincecum's unique delivery, which was taught to him by his father.

Getting back to subject of her going to college, aside what I mentioned before that she always wanted to go to Stanford, it seems inconceivable now that she passed up a great opportunity to turn pro, given her success as junior. Competing against the likes of Lauren Davis and Laura Robson, who are now ranked #56 and #64, makes me wonder if she could have been at their level now, climbing up the rankings, both whom had great years in 2013.

Ultimately, the drive that makes a player turn pro also factors in sacrifices, not just the hard work and grind, but the isolation of traveling and living in hotels. It is apparent that Krista wanted a more balanced life, which includes college academics and sports. I know when parents make sacrifices to become who they are (doctors, lawyers, etc). They ultimately want their kids to have a life that will make them happy. It is apparent that being a high achiever is stamped her DNA, after all, who at the age of 7 or 8 wants to go to Stanford. I bet both her parents were doctors.

My guess is that Krista's decision to go to Stanford is somewhat of a compromise. She's able to enjoy a more balanced life, yet at highly academic and success driven university, which would make her parents proud. Her mother once said that she thought that she thought Krista's older sister Lisa would be more competitive, since Lisa was more intense and Krista is easygoing. Has anyone seen Krista on the tennis court? I can't think of anyone, who is more intense. Her mom was definitely wrong about her, but in a way, her easygoing attitude may be who she is off the court.
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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #25
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Having known Krista since she was about 8 yrs old. I know for a fact her strokes was taught by her parents. Primarily her dad. And yes both parents are doctors. Always a very honest and kind and giving family. I remember as well, Krista's mom stating that her older daughter was not just more intense, but more talented. But Krista's work ethics are second to none. What she lacked in athleticism, she made up in working extremely hard not just on the court but off the court. Someone told me a story once that lived in the same area as Krista. She told me that she passed by the courts at which Krista practiced on a saturday morning. It was just Krista and a ball machine there. She would drill hitting the corners side to side over and over and over again. The person told me that she go about her day return in a few hours and Krista would still be there doing the same same drill a few hours later.

Krista's dad once told me that he told Krista that if she really wanted to get better and take her game to the net level that she needed to get in better shape. That statement was all it took. That was right before the big Krista breakout. According to her mom, Krista definitely wanted to turn pro, that may have changed within her last year or so.
Another story about Krista that I know and really like, is that one year before the USTA Clay court supernational's. Krista was already on a tear beating everyone and requested from the USTA to use the Clay courts at the Home Depot center where she had trained previously. She wanted to prepare for the tournament. The USTA said yes but you cannot bring your coach. Krista loved her coach. He was the only one who didn't feel he needed to change the way she hit the ball. (unlike the USTA during her stint with them) He embraced it and worked on improving all the other aspects of her game. So unable to get much if any clay court practice Krista still won the USTA 18's national Clay court tournament.

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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 06:37 PM   #26
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

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Now back to retirement
Agree with everything you said, except the real Stanford fans support Krista, thing is everyone is invited to Taube Stadium to watch.

I'd also say that there is speculation about which parts of Krista's games were changed by USTA coaches, and which by the Stanford coaches. One of the many excellent things about Coach Forood, is that she is supportive of her players as individuals, and having individual styles.
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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 07:09 PM   #27
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Wait a second...
Did you click yes to the disclosure that what is discussed in Tennis Forum, stays in Tennis forum?

After all, we’re a bunch of crazy tennis fanatics (especially the “retired” fantic), who shoot from the hip, not thinking any of what we say will ever get back to the players, who have no time to read such rubbish.

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Having known Krista since she was about 8 yrs old. I know for a fact her strokes was taught by her parents. Primarily her dad. And yes both parents are doctors. Always a very honest and kind and giving family. I remember as well, Krista's mom stating that her older daughter was not just more intense, but more talented. But Krist's work ethics are second to none. What she lacked in athleticism, she made up in working extremely hard not just on the court but off the court. Someone told me a story once that lived in the same area as Krista. She told me that she passed by the courts at which Krista practiced on a saturday morning. It was just Krista and a ball machine there. She would drill hitting the corners side to side over and over and over again. The person told me that she go about her day return in a few hours and Krista was still be there doing the same same drill a few hours later.
Wow, this is not something I’ve read anywhere about Krista. I mean, it is such a great story and I am surprised that it isn’t mentioned anywhere.
I assumed she was born with such tennis talent to have accomplished what she has. It is inspiring to those who work hard, in absence of natural talent.
I recall Nicole Gibbs tweeted that her dad told her success was 100% hard work and not talent.

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Originally Posted by Bigmanserve View Post
According to her mom, Krista definitely wanted to turn pro, that may have changed within her last year or so.
The saying goes that one picture is worth a thousand words…I believe this may express that change. It was my favorite picture of the tournament! Lean on me...



I think she was so happy to not only win it her freshman year such a great accomplishment, but to help win it for players like Gibbs, who had not won it and delayed turning pro a year for the opportunity AND Dillon, who was a walk-on and not a starter when the team won it in 2010. Stanford’s website didn’t provide the explicit details of her victory that she was down a set and trailing 5-1 with Cercone serving for the match, before she mounted her comeback to win 6-7 (5), 7-6 (5), 6-3.

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The USTA said yes but you cannot bring your coach. Krista loved her coach. He was the only one who didn't feel he needed to change the way she hit the ball. (unlike the USTA during her stint with them)
That’s the kind of thing that irks me about the USTA. Maybe I’m not always seeing all the positive that the USTA is doing, but when I hear about that and that story about Townsend, who was not allowed to play the US Open because she was overweight, so she decides to compete against their wishes, funding her own expenses, then later the USTA agrees to reimburse her…

I am assuming that coach was Robert Van't Hof, who previously coached Lindsey Davenport and now trains Coco Vandeweghe. I think it is just plain selfish and egotistical on the USTA’s part to not look what’s best for the player and acting solely on their behalf to seek recognition for player development.
To think that Patrick McEnroe went to Stanford...

Still Krista won the Clay court tournament and I bet she was determined more than ever by USTA’s actions. I’m not surprise that story never got to the press.
It should have. Players often have coaches long before the USTA discovers them. I'll leave at that...
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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 07:21 PM   #28
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

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I'd also say that there is speculation about which parts of Krista's games were changed by USTA coaches, and which by the Stanford coaches.
Do you care to elaborate?
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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #29
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

In other news, Danielle Lao beat Nicole Gibbs pretty easily at the pre qualifying tournament for Indian Wells. She won 6-1, 6-2.
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Old Feb 27th, 2014, 09:11 PM   #30
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Re: Does College prepare players to turn Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slickshoes510 View Post
In other news, Danielle Lao beat Nicole Gibbs pretty easily at the pre qualifying tournament for Indian Wells. She won 6-1, 6-2.


I always wanted to do that...

BTW, that is so old news
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