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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 10:26 PM   #1
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Volcana, you better read this

From the French Open website

http://2002.rolandgarros.com/en/news...700658cf9.html

Kapros shocks Henin
Matthew Cronin
Tuesday, May 28, 2002

In one of the most stunning results of the past decade, 179-ranked Aniko Kapros of Hungary shocked a physically ill 2001 Roland Garros semifinalist and No5 seed Justine Henin 4-6 6-1 6-0 in the first round on Tuesday.

"I feel awful, beyond frustration," said Henin, who believes she has either the flu or bronchitis. "I have great difficulty thinking that I lost in the first round of Roland Garros. I'm very disappointed. I wasn't able to fend for myself. I was expecting more, but this is not the end of my career."

Henin came into the event as one of the favorites after she won Berlin over Serena Williams a few weeks ago and then the next week, took out countrywoman Kim Clijsters before losing to Serena in the final of Rome. But on Tuesday, Henin was a shadow of herself, seemingly overwhelmed by fever and respiratory problems on a cold and rainy day, hitting short and down the middle and rarely getting much stick behind her balls.

While Henin produced 64 unforced errors and failed to change strategies or pace even when she was way down, the 18-year-old Kapros played a solid, steady contest and produced a number of deceptive winners.

Henin said she probably should have never taken to the court.

"It's mistake. I made my own decision, I wanted to fight for it," said Henin, who asked for treatment for an earache and breathing problems during the match, but had taken everything that tour rules allow before the contest began. "You always hope a miracle can happen. I even thought that during the match itself. But it does not always happen....I wanted to fight and I didn't retire because it's my personality."

The daughter of a former Olympic bronze medallist in gymnastics, the ebullient Kapros learned to play in the Bahamas and spent much of the match doing cartwheels past Henin.

"I had a great day and played one of the best matches I ever played," said Kapros, the 2000 junior Australian Open titlist. "I was focusing on the points I was playing at the moment."

Kapros spent much of her youth traveling the world while her parents performed in circuses, her father Attila jumping on a board to propel her mother (who shares the same name as her) into the air. Her mother would then do a series of flips and twists until she landed in Attila's arms.

They stopped performing when they became pregnant with Aniko, but her mother, who still travels with her, has instructed her well in how to compete in an international athletic forum.

"Gymnastics is also mentally tough," Kapros said. "She tells me what she felt. But you cannot compare. In gymnastics, you do your stuff in three minutes. It just depends on you. But in tennis, it depends on you and there's somebody on the other side you have to beat. It's very different and can go on for two to three hours."
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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 10:27 PM   #2
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so, could you please stop counting that "loss"?

You look rather bitter with that.
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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 10:32 PM   #3
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It's the same thing as Kim defeating Venus at the Season Ending Champs when Venus was clearly injured from the get go. Of course it shouldn't count, but it does.

As for sickness, I think a player of Justine's caliber should know very well if she will be able to play. She thought she could, and she loss. There is no excuse. If she was feeling that bad, as she say she was, then she would have never gone out there in the first place.

It's a loss, and it's a bad one at it. It goes with the territory.

And you can't blame the sickness for everything. I mean, she did win the first set after all.
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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 10:34 PM   #4
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It was so obvious watching the match that she was ill. I think she really starting feeling it later on in the first set. I think she was up 5-0 or 5-1, and then she ran out of gas.

It's sad...but it's a year ago.
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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 10:42 PM   #5
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stop counting it as a loss? Excuse me but why should Kapros give that win up? She deserved that win because she fought for it. Justine should have never taken the court just like venus in the champs. Once you take the court deal with the consequences. Its a loss. Face it. I'm sure justine has already.
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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 10:58 PM   #6
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I think the request was to stop counting it as a shocking unexpected upset by a lowly ranked player as Volcana does as part of his/her analysis of Justine's "failure" to achieve a top ranking.

Of course it is a loss just as Venus "lost" in Los Angeles. I think few on this board however talk much about Clijsters beating Venus and Serena back to back like it keeps being repeated.

Even if Justine had chosen not to play at the last minute it wouldn't have made any difference to her ranking.
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Old Apr 20th, 2003, 11:36 PM   #7
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Justine won the first set. If she had won the second as well, would we be counting this as a win ?
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 12:02 AM   #8
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Serena started '02 on a rather sour note. Early @ Sydney (2nd round?) she sprained an ankle and lost to Meghann by w/o. I don't recall her bitching about it, even though it meant missing the AO (and thus the chance for the "SSS" in '02). All she did was win the other 3 Slams (albeit with 1 loss each to Peppermint Patty, Juju, and Chanda mixed in), effectively call it a year after the USO way ahead of the field, then take one more loss in LA when clearly not "match tough". Juju also has the class to accept a "loss due to circumstance". (Are they supposed to lie about being ill or injured so as not to look like sore losers)?
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 12:04 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by PhoenixStorm
stop counting it as a loss? Excuse me but why should Kapros give that win up? She deserved that win because she fought for it. Justine should have never taken the court just like venus in the champs. Once you take the court deal with the consequences. Its a loss. Face it. I'm sure justine has already.
Nobody is asking Kapros to give it up, she got her points (interesting when they come off), she got her head-to-head, but in terms of analysis, it's irrelevant.

Justine should have never taken the court? true, but that's irrelevant. Justine would have never lost to Kapros if she was healthy and that's a fact.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 12:06 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Kart
Justine won the first set. If she had won the second as well, would we be counting this as a win ?

and the point being?, if Justine has won it would have been a great win considering she was ill

Not because you don't count the loss you wouldn't count the win, this is not 2 + 2, obviously for a player like Kapros that had done nothing before, and has done nothing after, a win over a top player will come like this. This is not about points or statistics, it's about the value of a win/loss.

And if Justine was healthy, a win over Kapros would have counted, but wouldn't have meant much.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 01:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Fingon
Justine should have never taken the court? true, but that's irrelevant. Justine would have never lost to Kapros if she was healthy and that's a fact.

Justine should not have taken the court is relevant. Since she shouldn't have taken the court, she wouldn't have lost, and this loss would not be on her record.

As for Justine definitely beating Kapros, nothing is a sure thing. I would have bet 200 to 1 that Venus was going to beat Schett in 2001, or beat Schwartz in 1999. I would have never thought of her losing. Or even to Dementieva, a new comer to the tour, in 1999.

Nothing is guaranteed, and for you to say Justine would have won is foolish, anyone should know that.

The fact is she lost, and it counts on her record. People won't look back and say "oh, well, she was sick, so that doesn't count." If she was that sick, she would have never went out there, if she was that sick, she would have never won a set. She went out there thinking she was healthy enough to compete, and a loss will be her own fault.

It's just like Venus. She should have never went out there against Kim, but she did. And now she has to face that she has another loss against Kim. That's just part of the game.

Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda, but DIDN'T, PERIOD.

She lost, so, accept it.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 01:36 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by VeNuS FoReVeR
Justine should not have taken the court is relevant. Since she shouldn't have taken the court, she wouldn't have lost, and this loss would not be on her record.


ok, let's try again, it's irrelevant for this purpose, did I say record? did I say head-tohead? did I say rankings points? those are irrelevant for my point which is how valuable is this win, in terms of what it MEANS, not in terms of record, I couldn't care less about that.

Let's try to put it simple, I am trying to see this loss from the point of view of what it means. Justine losing to Kapros, does it mean that Kapros is better? does it mean that Justine bad? No, the records are completely irrelevant here and I never said it doesn't count in the records

Quote:
As for Justine definitely beating Kapros, nothing is a sure thing. I would have bet 200 to 1 that Venus was going to beat Schett in 2001, or beat Schwartz in 1999. I would have never thought of her losing. Or even to Dementieva, a new comer to the tour, in 1999.
do you really compare Schett to Kapros? are you serious?

what has Kapros won, ever? zero, nothing, where is she now?

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Nothing is guaranteed, and for you to say Justine would have won is foolish, anyone should know that.
really? to say that a healthy Justine would beat a player that without the points she got from beating Justine would be outside the top 300?

that has never won a title, not even come close, that serves 50 mph?
of course, Justine could have broken her leg but that's not the point, I said if Justine was healthy.

to put it in perspective, if I wasn't 300% sure not only that Justine wouldn't lose to Kapros, but that Kapros wouldn't take more than 4 game I would stop supporting Justine because her game would simply be trash.
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The fact is she lost, and it counts on her record. People won't look back and say "oh, well, she was sick, so that doesn't count." If she was that sick, she would have never went out there, if she was that sick, she would have never won a set. She went out there thinking she was healthy enough to compete, and a loss will be her own fault.
again, who the f.ck is talking about records?, I am talking from a technical point of view, do I care what people will say?, I know what a loss means in terms of what it means to judge the players' game and this loss means nothing, no matter what the fucking records say

Quote:
It's just like Venus. She should have never went out there against Kim, but she did. And now she has to face that she has another loss against Kim. That's just part of the game.

Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda, but DIDN'T, PERIOD.

She lost, so, accept it.
are you really serious?, not in a billion years I will accept that Kapros won because she deserved it, because Justine loses to low ranked players. the could, should, would are pretty straight forward, anyone that knows even a little about tennis knows that unless Justine is injured, ill or something similar Kapros has no chance of beating her.

The Venus comparisson is fool, Kim can beat Venus even though that particular win is tainted, you are not comparing Kapros with Kim are you?

to put it clear, if Justine had been healthy and still lost to Kapros, she wouldn't have won any tournament, ever, she would be ranked outside the top 100 with no hopes to reach the top.

Do people actually read?
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 01:53 AM   #13
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I agree with Fingon. I think the point being made here is the value of the win. I think that Justine made a half-assed decision to play and the match is now over and it is part of her record. But the point here is that people in another thread is trying to bring across why Justine isn't rank any higher than fourth is that because she loses to non elite players like Kapros. And this "loss" should not even be a factor to why she is 4th because she really couldn't do much with her body. It's like there is a bout a 99% chance Justine would beat kapros on a healthy day so for someone to say that justine needs to stop being defeated by a non elite or else she would suffer to stay at 4th and bring the kapros match as evidence is foolish. i mean to say a very ill person should not lose to non elite just because she is top 5 during the match is just wrong. and to use this match as evidence as to why justine isn't any better than 4th is even worse. this match doesn't prove anything.

i think this is fingon's point.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 01:56 AM   #14
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Apparently Fingon either isn't making this obvious enough, or some of you just haven't read Volcana's many thoughts on Justine, which always seem to include this loss as a factor into whether or not she is "elite" or just the "rest of the best". Fingon is pointing out that allowing this loss to outweight all the titles, good results, and wins, is ridiculous.

We'll continue to hear questions about Justine until she finally wins a slam, though, and that's just how it will be.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 01:58 AM   #15
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You are claiming that Justine's "loss" as you quote it, is not a loss because she was sick.
*yawn*

Read my last post, maybe that will help
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