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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 11:09 PM   #31
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

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Originally Posted by 2notrump View Post
But how do you draw any useful conclusions from that statement without using ham-fisted stereotypes?

I can't tell you how many times I've been asked about whether I played football. I also can't tell you how much I was offended when I told them I played chess and they looked at me like I was wearing makeup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally Struthers View Post
A few posters have said stuff like everyone is equal or you have to take into account other things .. blah blah blah... excuses and trying to be PC and not hurt other people's feelings!

Tiger parents don't give a crap about feelings. Results are what count and from good results come praise, approval, and self esteem.

I believe this works since I have seen it with several of my Indian and Asian friends, who are all very successful now. Do we resent our parents? No! It does create an environment of stress and competition, but it prepares you for the real world.
Case in point.
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 11:11 PM   #32
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally Struthers View Post
A few posters have said stuff like everyone is equal or you have to take into account other things .. blah blah blah... excuses and trying to be PC and not hurt other people's feelings!

Tiger parents don't give a crap about feelings. Results are what count and from good results come praise, approval, and self esteem.

I believe this works since I have seen it with several of my Indian and Asian friends, who are all very successful now. Do we resent our parents? No! It does create an environment of stress and competition, but it prepares you for the real world.
Have to agree with Sally. I had a Tiger dad, resented him some growing up, but not anymore, he did me a huge service. I wonder if these are just the big immigrant demographics. It stands to reason that immigrating is hard and a big sacrifice and you will expect your children to take advantage of what is provided to them here that would not be available or harder to get where they came from.
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 11:58 PM   #33
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally Struthers View Post
A few posters have said stuff like everyone is equal or you have to take into account other things .. blah blah blah... excuses and trying to be PC and not hurt other people's feelings!

Tiger parents don't give a crap about feelings. Results are what count and from good results come praise, approval, and self esteem.

I believe this works since I have seen it with several of my Indian and Asian friends, who are all very successful now. Do we resent our parents? No! It does create an environment of stress and competition, but it prepares you for the real world.
I am only addressing the equality/superiority angle when you argue it is PC to tell your kid everyone is equal.
Well, that is all good and dandy.




But let me ask you, I assume you and your successful friends are Asian-Americans and Indian-Americans.
How you you react, even with your success, if white people say they are superior to you.
I am 100% various minority students association including Indian students or Asian or Black students would complain to the highest level of the schools administration.


Why, because as group, you know an assertive superiority complex of another group might affect you, especially if the group with superiority complex is in the majority and can exert that power to cause harm.




There is nothing wrong with raising you child with self-confidence and stress in their minds that education is important and that they have to be prepared by working hard so that they can compete with others.
It is adding the element of superiority like Tiger Mom author is doing that is dangerous.


Many Germans and other European Jews were highly educated and some artistically gifted, but the Nazis the Aryan were the superior people. all those educated Jews were looked upon with suspicion.
After all, if the Aryans are superior, the master race, how can an educated Jew hold any power over an Aryan German in the private work place ( including but not limited to academia, business, law, manufacturing).
One to explain it was their education was bogus, a fraud.


The notion of superiority of one people over another is very dangerous, and it is plaguing part of Indian society today.
It made apartheid possible in South Africa.
BTW, there are Indian South Africans, and they did suffer discrimination as well (although not at the same level as blacks) under the apartheid regime, despite their tiger moms.
There also Chinese South Africans, where not considered white, but Taiwanese, Korean and Japanese were considered honorary whites.
I am list all this to say once you on the road of group stratification, you set in motion things you cannot control.


Let say a hiring manager has that list when making application screening decision, it is only natural that s/he retain people for consideration stating from the top of the list.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 12:07 AM   #34
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

^ i might be wrong, but i think sally struthers is saying that tiger parenting is superior, not these cultural groups.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 12:19 AM   #35
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

When Asians and Indians are told they are inferior or treated that way in the US, they work to prove you wrong, and have more success than you in doing so. They don't complain to anyone about it, they go out and do it.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 12:40 AM   #36
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

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Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
^ i might be wrong, but i think sally struthers is saying that tiger parenting is superior, not these cultural groups.
The ranking of cultural groups ( reposted below) can easily be re-purposed for some other not so noble goals as I noted in my original post.
  • Jewish
  • Indian
  • Chinese
  • Iranian
  • Lebanese-Americans
  • Nigerians
  • Cuban exiles
  • Mormons

European colonists, especially the British, re-enforce this notion in Africa and Asian on the local population by promoting superior tribes to civil servant job, the coveted job during the colonization era.
In countries where there was already such structure in place, it exacerbated by the British, who made more rigorous, nut unlike British society itself, where your stock is determined by where you were borne.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 12:43 AM   #37
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

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Originally Posted by Helen Lawson View Post
When Asians and Indians are told they are inferior or treated that way in the US, they work to prove you wrong, and have more success than you in doing so. They don't complain to anyone about it, they go out and do it.
Nobody should have to be told that they are inferior.
And it is not true they don't complain. I gave example of University campuses where that type of thing w will not be tolerated by any any minority student group


You make it sound sound like they work hard because they are told they are inferior.


Again my point is, the ranking were unnecessary and counterproductive.
It seems Tiger Mom author wants to stay in the news, so she keeps pushing the envelope so stay provocative.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 01:14 AM   #38
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Nobody should have to be told that they are inferior.
And it is not true they don't complain. I gave example of University campuses where that type of thing w will not be tolerated by any any minority student group


You make it sound sound like they work hard because they are told they are inferior.


Again my point is, the ranking were unnecessary and counterproductive.
It seems Tiger Mom author wants to stay in the news, so she keeps pushing the envelope so stay provocative.
Nobody likes it, but they don't see complaining as a solution. But I think that goes for immigrants in general, not just from her groups and ranking. I know Caribbean families who are the same way and I live part time where there are Somali and Sudanese immigrants and those people and their kids work hard to succeed as well.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 01:18 AM   #39
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

Who?
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 01:21 AM   #40
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Again my point is, the ranking were unnecessary and counterproductive.
It seems Tiger Mom author wants to stay in the news, so she keeps pushing the envelope so stay provocative.
Her previous books were academic studies exploring a similar-subject matter, but in what appears to be a more nuanced manner.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Chua has written three books: two studies of international affairs and a memoir.

Her first book, World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability (2003), explores the ethnic conflict caused in many societies by disproportionate economic and political influence of "market dominant minorities" and the resulting resentment in the less affluent majority. World on Fire -- which was a New York Times Bestseller, selected by The Economist as one of the Best Books of 2003,[5] and named by The Guardian as one of the "Top Political Reads of 2003"[6] -- examines how globalization and democratization since 1989 have affected the relationship between market dominant minorities and the wider population.

Her second book, Day of Empire: How Hyperpowers Rise to Global Dominance – and Why They Fall (2007), examines seven major empires and posits that their success depended on their tolerance of minorities.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 01:54 AM   #41
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Her previous books were academic studies exploring a similar-subject matter, but in what appears to be a more nuanced manner.
:
It is precisely why she was concerned about in the first book that worries me in what I read in this thread.
The intersection of ranking,( that usually place a minority population on top of the pyramid), political and economic powers usually means that the superiors ethnic/tribal groups monopolize political and economical powers, which breeds resentment from the majority dispossessed.
Let's face it, after years running the things, the "superior" minority group start to believe it is their God given right to run things and the rest of the population is innately incapable or incompetent, so any attempt to share economic or political power them is as good as driving the country to ruins.


In the mean time, the majority population living in dire poverty start to become restless and social unrests and political upheaval of grave consequence may follow.

I admit that perhaps, in societies such as India, where superiority complex was superimposed on the cast system, itself much older than colonization, the status quo would probably last much longer, and various casts/tribes have come to accept to their stock in life after centuries of living under that arrangement.


If and when there is progress, part of it will usually be driven by international pressure, other countries governments acting the the UN or alone or civil society or right group around the world.








Quote:
From Wikipedia:

Quote:
Chua has written three books: two studies of international affairs and a memoir.

Her first book, World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability (2003), explores the ethnic conflict caused in many societies by disproportionate economic and political influence of "market dominant minorities" and the resulting resentment in the less affluent majority. World on Fire -- which was a New York Times Bestseller, selected by The Economist as one of the Best Books of 2003,[5] and named by The Guardian as one of the "Top Political Reads of 2003"[6] -- examines how globalization and democratization since 1989 have affected the relationship between market dominant minorities and the wider population.

Her second book, Day of Empire: How Hyperpowers Rise to Global Dominance – and Why They Fall (2007), examines seven major empires and posits that their success depended on their tolerance of minorities.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 03:35 AM   #42
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
I am only addressing the equality/superiority angle when you argue it is PC to tell your kid everyone is equal.
Well, that is all good and dandy.




But let me ask you, I assume you and your successful friends are Asian-Americans and Indian-Americans.
How you you react, even with your success, if white people say they are superior to you.
I am 100% various minority students association including Indian students or Asian or Black students would complain to the highest level of the schools administration.


Why, because as group, you know an assertive superiority complex of another group might affect you, especially if the group with superiority complex is in the majority and can exert that power to cause harm.




There is nothing wrong with raising you child with self-confidence and stress in their minds that education is important and that they have to be prepared by working hard so that they can compete with others.
It is adding the element of superiority like Tiger Mom author is doing that is dangerous.


Many Germans and other European Jews were highly educated and some artistically gifted, but the Nazis the Aryan were the superior people. all those educated Jews were looked upon with suspicion.
After all, if the Aryans are superior, the master race, how can an educated Jew hold any power over an Aryan German in the private work place ( including but not limited to academia, business, law, manufacturing).
One to explain it was their education was bogus, a fraud.


The notion of superiority of one people over another is very dangerous, and it is plaguing part of Indian society today.
It made apartheid possible in South Africa.
BTW, there are Indian South Africans, and they did suffer discrimination as well (although not at the same level as blacks) under the apartheid regime, despite their tiger moms.
There also Chinese South Africans, where not considered white, but Taiwanese, Korean and Japanese were considered honorary whites.
I am list all this to say once you on the road of group stratification, you set in motion things you cannot control.


Let say a hiring manager has that list when making application screening decision, it is only natural that s/he retain people for consideration stating from the top of the list.
I have to admit that a large majority of Asian and Indian american kids are raised thinking that they are superior to their american counterparts. It's never said in public, but only amongst family or those of your same race.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 03:35 AM   #43
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
^ i might be wrong, but i think sally struthers is saying that tiger parenting is superior, not these cultural groups.
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 04:17 AM   #44
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

There are plenty of people who are successful whose parents didn't call them garbage and make them resent them so...different strokes for different folks .
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Old Jan 7th, 2014, 01:34 PM   #45
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Re: Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

There are actually studies showing that "tiger parenting" isn't all that effective.
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