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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #16
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by Azapova View Post
I don't get it, neither won the YEC
You're right. Corrected.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:40 AM   #17
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Dementieva is on the list because she won the YEC. Ivanovic's total is where it is for the same reason.
Dementieva won YEC, but in doubles
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:40 AM   #18
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Dementieva is on the list because she won the YEC. Ivanovic's total is where it is for the same reason.
Dementieva's best result at YEC - SF

Ivanovic's - SF,

recheck your data


YEC winners since 2008

1998 Martina Hingis
1999 Lindsay Davenport
2000 Martina Hingis
2001 Serena Williams
2002 Kim Clijsters
2003 Kim Clijsters
2004 Maria Sharapova
2005 Amélie Mauresmo
2006 Justine Henin
2007 Justine Henin
2008 Venus Williams
2009 Serena Williams
2010 Kim Clijsters
2011 Petra Kvitová
2012 Serena Williams
2013 Serena Williams

By the way, it's remarkable that since 1998 all winners - multiple Slam winners, but Petra, who doesn't look like a one-Slam wonder too.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:42 AM   #19
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
multiple Slam winners, but Petra, who doesn't look like a one-Slam wonder too.
Give her some more time - she looks like she has a potential to win more Slams than Azarenka - she just has to fix all those issues with fitness and motivation.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:44 AM   #20
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
I think it would be right. Major = important in the English language. Facing the top players is important, especially since people are treating the majors as the gauge of player quality.
Nonsense. A Slam has to be an open tournament. It's not fair or right otherwise.

Why has the question arisen anyway? We don't need a 5th Slam. Who apart from the OP is calling for it? As far as I can see, the AO has, for many years now, attracted all the top players who are fit.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #21
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How could the YEC be a major when it's not an open tournament? It wouldn't be right.
This. There's a reason "open" is included in the names of tournaments. It is open to all players. The YEC is exclusive; the top 8 and only the top 8 compete.


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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:49 AM   #22
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by ZetaKizzy View Post
This. There's a reason "open" is included in the names of tournaments. It is open to all players. The YEC is exclusive; the top 8 and only the top 8 compete.
The AO used to be called the Australian Championships. The same was true for the US Open (US Championships) and probably the French as well.

The idea that it has to be "open" (which it really isn't since it relies on ranking even to make the qualifiers) in order to be a major is highly arbitrary.
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Originally Posted by CheddarChomper View Post
Nonsense. A Slam has to be an open tournament. It's not fair or right otherwise.
What's not fair is judging players by "majors" and ignoring the tournament where the have to play top players and survive.
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Why has the question arisen anyway?
Greater accuracy.
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Originally Posted by CheddarChomper View Post
We don't need a 5th Slam.
I think having the tour championships is a good thing, personally.
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Originally Posted by CheddarChomper View Post
Who apart from the OP is calling for it?
Appeal to authority and/or bandwagon fallacies. It doesn't matter who or how many... What matters is the logic and evidence.
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Originally Posted by CheddarChomper View Post
As far as I can see, the AO has, for many years now, attracted all the top players who are fit.
For many years, yes. However, people are counting it when talking about players like Margaret Court, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, and Serena Williams. They are not taking history into proper account.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:50 AM   #23
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

Dont, they will stick it in China if that happened...
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #24
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by lenas warriors View Post
Dont, they will stick it in China if that happened...
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/53767908
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:57 AM   #25
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
If people are going to call the ridiculous Australian Open (in Court's day) a major they really need to start taking the YEC into account.

Unlike the AO, the YEC didn't have a final between a top player and a player who never made it beyond the quarters of another major four times in a row.

Navratilova skipped the AO 11 times.
Evert skipped it 11 times.

Navratilova skipped the French 10 times.
Evert skipped it 5 times.

There is a problem when journeywomen who can't make it past the quarters and who are beaten in straight sets in four consecutive finals are supposed to represent the pinnacle of women's tennis competitiveness.

Plus, the YEC was even best of 5 for a number of years.

Winner, 1960, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 7–5, 6–2
Winner, 1961, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–1, 6–4
Winner, 1962, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–0, 6–2
Winner, 1963, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–2, 6–2


don't knock Court just because Navratilova and Evert did not attend. You can only play who is there. Blame the players who chose to bypass it.

The Australian Open is a major deal with it.

I guess we can expect more of your downgrading of the Aussie Open over the next 4-6 weeks and I guess the superiority of US Open in comparison.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #26
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition View Post
If people are going to call the ridiculous Australian Open (in Court's day) a major they really need to start taking the YEC into account.

Unlike the AO, the YEC didn't have a final between a top player and a player who never made it beyond the quarters of another major four times in a row.

Navratilova skipped the AO 11 times.
Evert skipped it 11 times.

Navratilova skipped the French 10 times.
Evert skipped it 5 times.

There is a problem when journeywomen who can't make it past the quarters and who are beaten in straight sets in four consecutive finals are supposed to represent the pinnacle of women's tennis competitiveness.

Plus, the YEC was even best of 5 for a number of years.

Winner, 1960, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 7–5, 6–2
Winner, 1961, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–1, 6–4
Winner, 1962, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–0, 6–2
Winner, 1963, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–2, 6–2


Statisticians and historians can data mine for any result they want to achieve. Most serious tennis historians, when judging who was best in any one given year, tend to focus on the tournaments where the best players in the world were playing. In the 1970's, most years, for the women, this included Wimbledon, the US Open, the VS Championships, the Toyota/Colgate Championships for the Grand Prix, and perhaps a few other important events. That's changed over time, obviously.

There's no inherent need to redefine or expand the "Grand Slam", however. Those four events are traditional, historic, cornerstone events in tennis. Whether you consider them important or not is irrelevant.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #27
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
If people are going to call the ridiculous Australian Open (in Court's day) a major they really need to start taking the YEC into account.
Your points may be technically valid but it won't change the fact that the AO was, is and will be a major while the YEC is not. As for taking the YEC into account, I do - just not when discussing the majors.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #28
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

Adding a fifth major just makes it even harder to compare players across eras. I see no reason that make tat any worse than it is

Look at it this way, the history of the sport is Lenglen, Wills Moody, Court, King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams.

Does counting the YEC as a major add anybody to that list? No.

Add half a slam for every slam doubles title.

44.0 = 24 + .5(19 +21) Court
38.5 = 18 + .5(31 +10) Navratilova
25.5 = 12 + .5(16 + 11) King
25.0 = 19 + .5(09 + 03) Wills Moody
24.5 = 17 + .5(13 + 02) Serena
22.0 = Graf
20.0 = 12 + .5(11 +05) Lenglen *
19.5 = 18 + .5(03 +00) Evert

*The politics of French tennis distort her records. And which way is debatable.

I actually like this better because it does a better job of letting you compare early champs to later one. I can compare Serean to BJK, for example. It also points up just how good Graf was as a single player. She's still in the middle of the list despite basically NEVER playing doubles.

And while we're talking how good or bad a tournament OZ is.was, note that Helen Wills Moody's record contains no OZ appearances at all. Pretty sharp looking record.

But when all is said and done, is there really any dispute over wo the long term dominant champions of the game were?

There were lights that shone brightly for brief periods: Seles, Venus, Henin, Mallory, Goolagong, Connelly, Gibson, Hingis, but the keyword there is 'brief'. (Or in Mallory's case, relegated to one tournament, the US Championships.) I see no real need to bend the stats to increase the perceived importance of any given player. Most tennis people agree on who the Amazons of the sport are.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #29
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

Nope it would be pointless, maybe when WTF and YEC become one big event
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #30
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Re: The YEC should be considered a fifth major

Might as well include Miami at this point
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