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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #16
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Regardless... her Australian open wins, which are quite disproportionate in terms the number of "major" titles she has, are not at the same level -- particularly in the first four matches against Miss QFs.

I'm sure Martina would have loved to have had three of the four majors on grass, a journeywoman in the final for four years in a row, a walkover, et cetera.
Are we talking about the same Martina who skipped clay events to avoid Chris until she was in perfect condition and who picked surfaces like Grass and Carpet especially later in her career to enhance her success rate? Look, you can pick holes into anyone's career.

Yes, Margaret's 11-5-3-5 does look disproportionate but she reminds me of Serena in her time in a sense that she towered above her rivals and she really was dominant on all surfaces.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 11:53 AM   #17
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Revisionist history, frankly. Court's record is a mess of asterisks.

The Australian Open was small potatoes back when Court won so many of them. It often had a weak field. Four of the titles Court won were against Jan Lehane O'Neill, a woman who never made it further than the quarterfinals in any other major! Nancy Richey, who gave her a walkover, only won one major aside from her one AO title. Another player, Kerry Melville Reid, only won one major -- the AO.

The French Open's field was also sometimes weak. Helga Niessen Masthoff had just one semi at another major and just one final (the French Open match that Court won). Court beat Casals, who also never won a major, at the US Open.

Court was also vastly favored by the surfaces, as every US Open and every Australian Open she played were on grass! She didn't have to play a single hard court major, which helped her greatly maintain herself physically. Martina, by contrast, had to jump and dive all over hard courts for her entire career, especially when she was older.

Navratilova and Evert both skipped the Australian Open 11 times each!

They also tended to skip the French. Navratilova skipped it 10 times and Evert skipped it 5 times.

Clay was Martina's least dominant surface but she was no slouch on it. Her first major title was the French mixed in 1974. Her first doubles major title was also the French (in '75). Of the first two major singles finals she made, one of them was the French and it was the only one that went to three sets. She lost to clay GOAT Evert who was in the midst of her record 125 straight match streak. Clearly, if she hadn't had to contend with Evert on clay and hadn't skipped 10 French Opens, her major total would be higher.

Then there is the fact that the Australian was on grass in her early career. She skipped more Australians in her early career than she did near the end of it. Since grass is obviously her best surface (along with indoor carpet), she would have won many Australian Opens.

And, finally... the Tour Championships were best of 5 for quite a few years and had more prestige than the French or the Australian. Guess who has the most titles for that major?


It's not her fault that the AO was a glorified MM tournament in those days but still doesn't change the fact it was .
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #18
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I really don't see the point in discounting anyone's achievements. Regardless of what the draw looked like, Margaret Court still had to go out there and win the matches. No one was handing them to her prematurely. No one would bet against her, but she still had to play. You can only play who's across the net and if most of the time it was her less talented countrywomen she was routing, it doesn't change the fact that she earned them.


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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #19
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Yes, Margaret's 11-5-3-5 does look disproportionate but she reminds me of Serena in her time in a sense that she towered above her rivals and she really was dominant on all surfaces.
3-2-9-4 also looks disproportionate does it not? With 12/18 slams coming on grass, 19/24 for Court, interesting, who was the better grass courter and volleyer?

10/18 of Evert's slams came on clay, 10/17 for Serena on hard. You can play this game with any great. The only one who can claim a truly even distribution of slams across all surfaces is Graf.

The disproportionality of Court's slams is only a bad thing if you presuppose her AOs are worthless. They're not, it was her home slam, on her favourite surface, in her back yard, so understandably it was going to be her best and most consistent slam. Further, as hard as it was for some players to make it to Australian in those days which did lead to many, but not all, AOs having depleted fields, imagine how hard it was for Court to travel to the US and Europe while maintaining her base in Australia. Not only did she travel to those regions, but she dominated the touranaments held in those regions as no-one else in that era could. An equivocal legend of the game.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #20
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

lets celebrate the homophobic witch
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 03:12 PM   #21
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Revisionist history, frankly. Court's record is a mess of asterisks.
The facts are: Court is 18 of 47 majors played. Williams is currently 18 of 52. Graf - 22 of 54, Evert - 18 of 56, Navratilova - 18 of 67.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #22
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

After (if) she breaks Martina and Evert's record she also has to break Helen Wills's record of 19 GS (8 Wimbledon, 7 US Open and 4 FO; never played the AO) before anyone can start talking about Graf or Court
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #23
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Yes, Helen Wills 1923-1938. Helen's is even longer, for now.
Damn, you're right. Helen Wills has it. My bad.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 03:34 PM   #24
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Even if some of them should be weighted according to the era they took place etc..., her achievements are still amaze.She'll always be one of the GOATs no doubt.
That being said, fucked up human being.She could choke on a banana and die in the minute, I couldn't care less
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 03:38 PM   #25
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by matthias View Post
lets celebrate the homophobic witch
This is about her tennis, not her sociopolitical views.
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Old Dec 13th, 2013, 07:42 AM   #26
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

The AO always was a major, actually since it was considered one of the four slams. When Connolly won the calendar grand slam in 1953, it was noticed, right? The problem with the AO was the distance, and also the time of the year. Borg avoided it because he needed to rest at this time of the year, spending Christmas with his family. Borg also told many times that in the 70's, it wasn't as important as now to win the "grand slam". The importance of the grand slams grew over the years, along with History. Some players were more aware of the importance of History, though. Donald Budge knew the importance of winning the four events in 1938. He did that for a prestige that not every player did care much about then. Still, you can hear comments of the days about Budge being one of the all time greats.

Court had the advantage of being Australian, still, she had to make the trip to win everywhere else. A few players made the trip to play the AO, but not many.

We certainly miss a lot of footage from the sixties regarding Court. I've seen some bits and was impressed by the way she took the net. She was great against Evert in 1973 on clay, but I wouldn't be surprised if she played even better in the sixties.
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Old Dec 13th, 2013, 01:54 PM   #27
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Are we talking about the same Martina who skipped clay events to avoid Chris until she was in perfect condition and who picked surfaces like Grass and Carpet especially later in her career to enhance her success rate? Look, you can pick holes into anyone's career.

Yes, Margaret's 11-5-3-5 does look disproportionate but she reminds me of Serena in her time in a sense that she towered above her rivals and she really was dominant on all surfaces.
The fact IS that in 6 of Court's Aussie wins she beat a top 3 player. Twice she beat Bueno, once in a quarter final when Maria was #1, another in a final. She also beat King twice, once in a semi, another in a final. She also beat Goolagong in 2 finals whe Evonne was at her peak. The fact is that whenever the other top players competed, Margreat won. The idea that all of Court's Aussie titles were cakewalks, is either ignorant or a deliberate lie. How man slams has Graf or Serena won with less than great competition? Bueno is a 7 time slam winner, BJK-12, Goolagong-7, Wade-3.
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Old Dec 13th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #28
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
The AO always was a major, actually since it was considered one of the four slams. When Connolly won the calendar grand slam in 1953, it was noticed, right? The problem with the AO was the distance, and also the time of the year. Borg avoided it because he needed to rest at this time of the year, spending Christmas with his family. Borg also told many times that in the 70's, it wasn't as important as now to win the "grand slam". The importance of the grand slams grew over the years, along with History. Some players were more aware of the importance of History, though. Donald Budge knew the importance of winning the four events in 1938. He did that for a prestige that not every player did care much about then. Still, you can hear comments of the days about Budge being one of the all time greats.

Court had the advantage of being Australian, still, she had to make the trip to win everywhere else. A few players made the trip to play the AO, but not many.

We certainly miss a lot of footage from the sixties regarding Court. I've seen some bits and was impressed by the way she took the net. She was great against Evert in 1973 on clay, but I wouldn't be surprised if she played even better in the sixties.
Of course she was better in the 60's. When she beat Evert in the 73 FO final, she was a 31 YO mother. Evert may not have been at her peak, but the fact is that she was easily beating everyone else on clay at that time and that Margreat Court was the only player capable of beating Chris at the FO that year.
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Old Dec 14th, 2013, 01:31 AM   #29
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by superstition View Post
"Slam" in this case is almost meaningless -- highly subjective and contradicted by the details.

We're comparing three out of four tournaments being held on grass with wood racquets, the fourth being a not so prestigious one held on clay -- with all four tournaments being high profile and half of them being on hard courts -- and all played with big graphite racquets.

It becomes a matter of apples and oranges.

She faced a woman who never made it beyond the quarters anywhere else four times in a row.

Winner, 1960, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 7–5, 6–2
Winner, 1961, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–1, 6–4
Winner, 1962, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–0, 6–2
Winner, 1963, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–2, 6–2

Ok playing your discounting game, which you make yourself sound more ridiculous the more you say oh this one deserves an asterisk that one deserves an asterisk, The FACT of the matter history IS what it IS no matter how man ifs and buts you put to it. Lets take these 4 championships off Margaret, she still has 20 GS singles titles and an astonishing mixed and womens doubles records. You yourself admit most players may have an asterisk, so lets stop with these SUBJECTIVE views and look at the facts. History records Margaret won 24 GS singles titles in pre and post open era, nothing you can say or do takes away from that. And please don't tell me Martina and Chris faced consistent quality opponents prior to STeffi, I lived through it, Hanna was at best unpredictably brilliant, but most predictably error stricken and not a challenge, Evonne very prone to errors and inconsistency, Billie Jean was finished in her reign as well as Margaret....... who exactly are these quality opponents your talking about? Lets face it if Chris and Martina were in a GS invariably they met each other in the final, the womens draws were weak, who are we kidding here?
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Old Dec 14th, 2013, 01:36 AM   #30
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Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

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Originally Posted by sonfo View Post
After (if) she breaks Martina and Evert's record she also has to break Helen Wills's record of 19 GS (8 Wimbledon, 7 US Open and 4 FO; never played the AO) before anyone can start talking about Graf or Court
Oh don't talk about Hellen Wills Superstition will claim all her record were when the tournaments were a group of ladies social giggled and hit balls and had cups of tea after every set and should all be discounted as irrelevent.
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