40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Dec 11th, 2013, 06:47 PM   #1
country flag DanLovesWTA
Senior Member
 
DanLovesWTA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,652
DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute DanLovesWTA has a reputation beyond repute
40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Everyone's asking about Serena Williams catching up to Steffi Graf's Open Era record of 22 Grand Slams, but if she completes that mission, there's still one more level - a bonus level, in a way...

LONDON, England [/b]- In a few weeks everyone will be talking about Serena Williams going for her 18th Grand Slam title, which would tie her with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova for second place on the Open Era list of Grand Slams - first place in the Open Era belongs to Steffi Graf, who has 22 of them.

But even beyond that is another record - a record that, given Williams keeps up her recent domination of the women's tour, will be within reach in the second half of 2015. It's the all-time record for Grand Slam titles, across the Open Era and pre-Open Era, and it belongs to Margaret Court - a whopping 24.

Court's 24 Grand Slam titles included every one of the four majors - 11 Australian Opens, five French Opens, three Wimbledons and five US Opens. But more amazing is that she took several breaks in her career to have her first three children, only playing 47 Grand Slams - she won more than half of them.

She also completed the Calendar Year Grand Slam in 1970, one of only three women in the history of the sport to do that, alongside Maureen Connolly in 1953 and the aforementioned Graf in 1988.

The Australian's 17-year professional career wrapped up at Detroit in 1977, retiring as she became pregnant with her fourth child. Though her years as the best player in the world all came in before the computer WTA Rankings were introduced in 1975, many people consider her a former No.1 anyway.

And she was included in the WTA's 40 LOVE Party on the Middle Sunday of Wimbledon earlier this year, joining a slew of other former World No.1s for a panel discussion at the once-in-a-lifetime event.

"It was great to be a part of it," Court said at the event. "There were probably only three other players there that I played against in my career - Chris, Martina and Billie Jean - the rest of them were after my career. But I think it's great for the game and it was definitely a great experience to be a part of it."

The woman most likely to break Court's record in this lifetime - Williams - was also at the event. Since coming back from a year-long injury and illness lay-off at Wimbledon in 2011, the American has gone from strength to strength. But exactly how much does Court keep in touch with women's tennis now?

"This Wimbledon is the first time I've been back for nine years, but I keep up with tennis, and I do watch the Slams," she said. "It's always great to see women coming through, and the athletic and artistic sides coming through. I'd like to see a few more volleyers and a bit more artistry in it, though.

"I also still play a little bit. I enjoy the exercise of it. I've just always loved the game."



http://www.wtatennis.com/40love/arti...margaret-court
__________________
Simona Halep
Sorana Cirstea,Jelena Jankovic,Samantha Stosur,Victoria Azarenka,Sabine Lisicki,Ana Ivanovic,Caroline Wozniacki,Na Li,Monica Niculescu,Petra Kvitova,Flavia Pennetta,Belinda Bencic,Irina-Camelia Begu,Lucie Safarova,Madison Keys,Anastasia Pavlyuchenkova, Donna Vekic,Angelique Kerber,Elina Svitolina,Agnieszka Radwanska,Venus Williams,Andrea Petkovic.
Elena Baltacha 1983-2014
Deserve my appreciation: Steffi Graf, Elena Dementieva, Justine Henin, Kim Clijsters.

Last edited by DanLovesWTA : Dec 16th, 2013 at 11:46 PM.
DanLovesWTA is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Dec 11th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #2
edificio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 28,922
edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute edificio has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLovesWTA View Post
Everyone's asking about Serena Williams catching up to Steffi Graf's Open Era record of 22 Grand Slams, but if she completes that mission, there's still one more level - a bonus level, in a way......
Maybe we could let her win slam number 18 before we worry about her winning 24+ slams.
edificio is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11th, 2013, 06:55 PM   #3
country flag Hugues Daniel
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 9,774
Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Serena has already a record that no other GOAT has: longevity. First slam won in 1999, latest one in 2013. That makes slam wins over fifteen years. No other GOAT did that in the history of womens tennis.
Hugues Daniel is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11th, 2013, 07:00 PM   #4
country flag Hugues Daniel
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 9,774
Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute Hugues Daniel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLovesWTA View Post
And she was included in the WTA's 40 LOVE Party on the Middle Sunday of Wimbledon earlier this year, joining a slew of other former World No.1s for a panel discussion at the once-in-a-lifetime event.

"It was great to be a part of it," Court said at the event. "There were probably only three other players there that I played against in my career - Chris, Martina and Billie Jean - the rest of them were after my career. But I think it's great for the game and it was definitely a great experience to be a part of it."
Margaret forgot Evonne...
Hugues Daniel is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11th, 2013, 07:22 PM   #5
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,045
pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLovesWTA View Post
But more amazing is that she took several breaks in her career to have her first three children, only playing 47 Grand Slams - she won more than half of them.
That is amazing. Williams is currently 18 of 52. Graf did 22 of 54, Evert did 18 of 56, Navratilova did 18 of 67. (corrections welcomed)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
First slam won in 1999, latest one in 2013. That makes slam wins over fifteen years.
That too is amazing.
__________________
“Nonviolence means avoiding not only physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.” – MLK

Last edited by pov : Dec 12th, 2013 at 02:40 PM.
pov is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 08:23 AM   #6
country flag Sam L
Sunset, Moonrise, Winter
 
Sam L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indochine
Posts: 31,745
Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
Serena has already a record that no other GOAT has: longevity. First slam won in 1999, latest one in 2013. That makes slam wins over fifteen years. No other GOAT did that in the history of womens tennis.
Yes, Helen Wills 1923-1938. Helen's is even longer, for now. But I'm sure Serena will overtake.

Anyway, respect to Margaret Court. Not a fan of her game but definitely a legend. Even more amazing when you consider that she was a natural left hander.
__________________
Have I not my talent left? Can I not, like Monica, Serena, Marion, acquire for myself what you would never have given me? - Bel Grugnito Diva
Pas de Quatre: Swan Lake, Giselle, The Nutcracker, Coppélia
Sam L is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 08:59 AM   #7
country flag superstition
Senior Member
 
superstition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,408
superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Revisionist history, frankly. Court's record is a mess of asterisks.

The Australian Open was small potatoes back when Court won so many of them. It often had a weak field. Four of the titles Court won were against Jan Lehane O'Neill, a woman who never made it further than the quarterfinals in any other major! Nancy Richey, who gave her a walkover, only won one major aside from her one AO title. Another player, Kerry Melville Reid, only won one major -- the AO.

The French Open's field was also sometimes weak. Helga Niessen Masthoff had just one semi at another major and just one final (the French Open match that Court won). Court beat Casals, who also never won a major, at the US Open.

Court was also vastly favored by the surfaces, as every US Open and every Australian Open she played were on grass! She didn't have to play a single hard court major, which helped her greatly maintain herself physically. Martina, by contrast, had to jump and dive all over hard courts for her entire career, especially when she was older.

Navratilova and Evert both skipped the Australian Open 11 times each!

They also tended to skip the French. Navratilova skipped it 10 times and Evert skipped it 5 times.

Clay was Martina's least dominant surface but she was no slouch on it. Her first major title was the French mixed in 1974. Her first doubles major title was also the French (in '75). Of the first two major singles finals she made, one of them was the French and it was the only one that went to three sets. She lost to clay GOAT Evert who was in the midst of her record 125 straight match streak. Clearly, if she hadn't had to contend with Evert on clay and hadn't skipped 10 French Opens, her major total would be higher.

Then there is the fact that the Australian was on grass in her early career. She skipped more Australians in her early career than she did near the end of it. Since grass is obviously her best surface (along with indoor carpet), she would have won many Australian Opens.

And, finally... the Tour Championships were best of 5 for quite a few years and had more prestige than the French or the Australian. Guess who has the most titles for that major?
superstition is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #8
country flag superstition
Senior Member
 
superstition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,408
superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Not having to compete on hard courts also greatly favored Court's playing style. If she had had to play on a lot of hard courts she would have faced stiffer opposition from defensive players.
superstition is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 09:11 AM   #9
country flag renstar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 958
renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of renstar has much to be proud of
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Revisionist history, frankly. Court's record is a mess of asterisks.

The Australian Open was small potatoes back when Court won so many of them. It often had a weak field. Four of the titles Court won were against Jan Lehane O'Neill, a woman who never made it further than the quarterfinals in any other major! Nancy Richey, who gave her a walkover, only won one major aside from her one AO title. Another player, Kerry Melville Reid, only won one major -- the AO.

The French Open's field was also sometimes weak. Helga Niessen Masthoff had just one semi at another major and just one final (the French Open match that Court won). Court beat Casals, who also never won a major, at the US Open.

Court was also vastly favored by the surfaces, as every US Open and every Australian Open she played were on grass! She didn't have to play a single hard court major, which helped her greatly maintain herself physically. Martina, by contrast, had to jump and dive all over hard courts for her entire career, especially when she was older.

Navratilova and Evert both skipped the Australian Open 11 times each!

They also tended to skip the French. Navratilova skipped it 10 times and Evert skipped it 5 times.

Clay was Martina's least dominant surface but she was no slouch on it. Her first major title was the French mixed in 1974. Her first doubles major title was also the French (in '75). Of the first two major singles finals she made, one of them was the French and it was the only one that went to three sets. She lost to clay GOAT Evert who was in the midst of her record 125 straight match streak. Clearly, if she hadn't had to contend with Evert on clay and hadn't skipped 10 French Opens, her major total would be higher.

Then there is the fact that the Australian was on grass in her early career. She skipped more Australians in her early career than she did near the end of it. Since grass is obviously her best surface (along with indoor carpet), she would have won many Australian Opens.

And, finally... the Tour Championships were best of 5 for quite a few years and had more prestige than the French or the Australian. Guess who has the most titles for that major?
When a person starts discounting a legends achievements where does one stop?? Should we discount half or more of Steffi's Grand Slams because of Monica's stabbing? Should we discount many of Martina and Chris' grand slam because of weak womens fields in the grand slams they played, with most of their matches being straight set routes untill the quarter or semi finals? Should we discount some of Serena's grand slams because of the relatively early retirmements of Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, Capriati? Each of these had the potential to knock Serena out of GS's.

The fact is Chris and Martina CHOSE to skip the Australian open and French open nobody made them, so thats theirs to wear not to put it on anyone else. As far as your comment on Jan Lehanne O'neil well the fact of the matter is lower ranked players do make GS finals, especially if higher seeds are absent, its happened many times in current history.

You can play this discounting game as long as you like, the fact is Margaret dominated her generation, players like Billie Jean King, Maria Beuno as well as some good wins over Evert and you can't ask more of her than that. The fact the AO and French were developing tournaments is just the way it was at the time. Current statisticians refer to records in Pre and Post open era and refer to Margaret's records in that vein, so this is enough to tell her story. To distract from her achievements is unnecessary
renstar is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 09:12 AM   #10
country flag Sam L
Sunset, Moonrise, Winter
 
Sam L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indochine
Posts: 31,745
Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Revisionist history, frankly. Court's record is a mess of asterisks.

The Australian Open was small potatoes back when Court won so many of them. It often had a weak field. Four of the titles Court won were against Jan Lehane O'Neill, a woman who never made it further than the quarterfinals in any other major! Nancy Richey, who gave her a walkover, only won one major aside from her one AO title. Another player, Kerry Melville Reid, only won one major -- the AO.

The French Open's field was also sometimes weak. Helga Niessen Masthoff had just one semi at another major and just one final (the French Open match that Court won). Court beat Casals, who also never won a major, at the US Open.

Court was also vastly favored by the surfaces, as every US Open and every Australian Open she played were on grass! She didn't have to play a single hard court major, which helped her greatly maintain herself physically. Martina, by contrast, had to jump and dive all over hard courts for her entire career, especially when she was older.

Navratilova and Evert both skipped the Australian Open 11 times each!

They also tended to skip the French. Navratilova skipped it 10 times and Evert skipped it 5 times.

Clay was Martina's least dominant surface but she was no slouch on it. Her first major title was the French mixed in 1974. Her first doubles major title was also the French (in '75). Of the first two major singles finals she made, one of them was the French and it was the only one that went to three sets. She lost to clay GOAT Evert who was in the midst of her record 125 straight match streak. Clearly, if she hadn't had to contend with Evert on clay and hadn't skipped 10 French Opens, her major total would be higher.

Then there is the fact that the Australian was on grass in her early career. She skipped more Australians in her early career than she did near the end of it. Since grass is obviously her best surface (along with indoor carpet), she would have won many Australian Opens.

And, finally... the Tour Championships were best of 5 for quite a few years and had more prestige than the French or the Australian. Guess who has the most titles for that major?
If you really want to, you can put an asterisk on just about anyone's record. The fact is Margaret's 24 slam singles is the record.

Your argument falls apart because it's not like Margaret was a vulture, she beat the best players everywhere: King at Wimbledon, Evert at French, Goolagong in Australia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition View Post
Not having to compete on hard courts also greatly favored Court's playing style. If she had had to play on a lot of hard courts she would have faced stiffer opposition from defensive players.
She didn't face stiff competition from defensive players on clay?
__________________
Have I not my talent left? Can I not, like Monica, Serena, Marion, acquire for myself what you would never have given me? - Bel Grugnito Diva
Pas de Quatre: Swan Lake, Giselle, The Nutcracker, Coppélia
Sam L is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #11
country flag superstition
Senior Member
 
superstition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,408
superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by renstar View Post
When a person starts discounting a legends achievements where does one stop?? Should we discount half or more of Steffi's Grand Slams because of Monica's stabbing?
Graf's major results do have a huge asterisk, and I'm not the only one to say that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Illustrated
Let's just say it's been 20 years since Monica Seles had her career maimed and dismantled on a court in Hamburg, Germany, and then try to remember her historic effect on women's tennis.

The wretched man didn't realize that Graf's career would, in fact, be tainted -- or that Graf would be appalled at the notion of Seles vanishing from tennis in such a manner.

She was away from tennis for 27 months, 10 Grand Slam events taking place without her. Graf won six of those majors.

And without question, there were flashes of the old Seles. Even while admitting she was "not even close" to her vintage self, she won that first tournament, and took Graf to three sets at the U.S. Open a month later. Then, in a stirring personal triumph, she defeated Anke Huber to win the 1996 Australian Open -- the last bold statement in a career that, deep down, she knew could never be the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renstar View Post
Should we discount many of Martina and Chris' grand slam because of weak womens fields in the grand slams they played, with most of their matches being straight set routes untill the quarter or semi finals?
Both players faced many quality opponents, especially since they tended to skip the two tournaments that tended to have weaker fields -- especially the Australian. Many consider Martina to be the greatest player but remember that Evert had two record clay streaks during much of Martina's career. It's not that the field was particularly weak. It's that they were just that good.

Evert beat Court in one of her first matches as a young teen. Court was #1 at the time and had just won a major.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renstar View Post
Should we discount some of Serena's grand slams because of the relatively early retirmements of Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, Capriati? Each of these had the potential to knock Serena out of GS's.
Every player's record has asterisks. Some of them have more of them and some of the asterisks are bigger.

Fortunately for Serena she didn't have to face peak Graf as an old lady after the sport had dumped so many grass tournaments for hard courts. Fortunately for her she also didn't have to face the clay goat with a wood racquet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renstar View Post
The fact is Chris and Martina CHOSE to skip the Australian open and French open nobody made them, so thats theirs to wear not to put it on anyone else.
Their choice was not made out of thin air. It was made because the Australian in particular was not much of a major. It's interesting, frankly, how the WTA championships isn't given the same credit as a tournament where a woman won four times against a player who never made it past the quarters elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renstar View Post
As far as your comment on Jan Lehanne O'neil well the fact of the matter is lower ranked players do make GS finals, especially if higher seeds are absent, its happened many times in current history.
Four times in a row. Court played her in four Australian Open finals in a row. Clearly, the higher seeds were absent!
Quote:
Originally Posted by renstar View Post
You can play this discounting game as long as you like, the fact is Margaret dominated her generation, players like Billie Jean King, Maria Beuno as well as some good wins over Evert and you can't ask more of her than that. The fact the AO and French were developing tournaments is just the way it was at the time. Current statisticians refer to records in Pre and Post open era and refer to Margaret's records in that vein, so this is enough to tell her story. To distract from her achievements is unnecessary
It's not a "discounting game." It's a matter of correctly interpreting history instead of revising it to make a player look more dominant and glamorous than their record shows.

Last edited by superstition : Dec 12th, 2013 at 09:28 AM.
superstition is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 09:27 AM   #12
country flag superstition
Senior Member
 
superstition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,408
superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
The fact is Margaret's 24 slam singles is the record.
"Slam" in this case is almost meaningless -- highly subjective and contradicted by the details.

We're comparing three out of four tournaments being held on grass with wood racquets, the fourth being a not so prestigious one held on clay -- with all four tournaments being high profile and half of them being on hard courts -- and all played with big graphite racquets.

It becomes a matter of apples and oranges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
she beat the best players everywhere: King at Wimbledon, Evert at French, Goolagong in Australia.
She faced a woman who never made it beyond the quarters anywhere else four times in a row.

Winner, 1960, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 7–5, 6–2
Winner, 1961, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–1, 6–4
Winner, 1962, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–0, 6–2
Winner, 1963, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–2, 6–2

superstition is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:02 AM   #13
country flag mido1988
Senior Member
 
mido1988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,021
mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of mido1988 has much to be proud of
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

great champion
mido1988 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:13 AM   #14
country flag Sam L
Sunset, Moonrise, Winter
 
Sam L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indochine
Posts: 31,745
Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition View Post
"Slam" in this case is almost meaningless -- highly subjective and contradicted by the details.

We're comparing three out of four tournaments being held on grass with wood racquets, the fourth being a not so prestigious one held on clay -- with all four tournaments being high profile and half of them being on hard courts -- and all played with big graphite racquets.

It becomes a matter of apples and oranges.

She faced a woman who never made it beyond the quarters anywhere else four times in a row.

Winner, 1960, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 7–5, 6–2
Winner, 1961, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–1, 6–4
Winner, 1962, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–0, 6–2
Winner, 1963, Australian Championships, Grass, Jan Lehane O'Neill 6–2, 6–2


In 1962, she won 3/4 majors. If this is like Daphne Akhurst who won the Australian but couldn't produce the same results at Wimbledon, I'd say fair enough. But Court at her best was also a Wimbledon champion and in 1970 a Grand Slam champion beating I believe King on her way.

She has a winning record against all her contemporaries (not the next generation like Evert/Navratilova) but her contemporaries like Bueno and King.
__________________
Have I not my talent left? Can I not, like Monica, Serena, Marion, acquire for myself what you would never have given me? - Bel Grugnito Diva
Pas de Quatre: Swan Lake, Giselle, The Nutcracker, Coppélia
Sam L is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12th, 2013, 10:30 AM   #15
country flag superstition
Senior Member
 
superstition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,408
superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute superstition has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 40 LOVE Icons: Margaret Court

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
In 1962, she won 3/4 majors. If this is like Daphne Akhurst who won the Australian but couldn't produce the same results at Wimbledon, I'd say fair enough. But Court at her best was also a Wimbledon champion and in 1970 a Grand Slam champion beating I believe King on her way.

She has a winning record against all her contemporaries (not the next generation like Evert/Navratilova) but her contemporaries like Bueno and King.
Regardless... her Australian open wins, which are quite disproportionate in terms the number of "major" titles she has, are not at the same level -- particularly in the first four matches against Miss QFs.

I'm sure Martina would have loved to have had three of the four majors on grass, a journeywoman in the final for four years in a row, a walkover, et cetera.
superstition is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios