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Old Oct 13th, 2013, 03:04 PM   #1
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Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

I have always laughed at people who say that I, and many others from the new EU member states, live on the social welfare of the older member countries but now I have even the proof, of what I already knew. A proof written in English. The question is reality too much to handle ?

Too bad, I lived 13 years in Luxembourg and never, ever had even one euro for free How stupid of me

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Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

http://www.dw.de/migrants-no-burden-...ays/a-17153430

Local authorities in Germany fear their social funds are being used up by Romanians and Bulgarians who are taking advantage of the system. But a new study by the European Commission dismisses that belief.

German Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich warned earlier this week of a wave of poverty-stricken immigrants heading from Romania and Bulgaria to Germany - in particular, migrants who are after the country's social welfare funds.

"It just can't be the case that freedom of movement [in the EU] is being so abused by people who are only changing countries to benefit from higher social assistance," said Friedrich at a meeting of EU interior ministers in Luxembourg on Tuesday (08.10.2013). Two days later, a court in North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW) poured oil on the fire when it granted social assistance to a Romanian immigrant family that had unsuccessfully sought work in Germany for the past year.

Romania and Bulgaria have been members of the European Union since 2007, and since then citizens of these countries have been able to travel to Germany without a visa, or any other restrictions. For the last seven years there have been limitations for Romanian and Bulgarian jobseekers in Germany, but those restrictions will expire at the end of 2013.

But Friedrich is opposed to this happening. Along with British Home Secretary Theresa May and Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner, Friedrich called on the EU Commission to act against the immigrants from the eastern Balkans.

Germany would welcome those who want to work, said Friedrich, but must be allowed to send back those who are only coming for the welfare payments.

Study shows no social burden

A European Commission report seen by DW ahead of publication showed that EU migrants in fact do not place a burden on the welfare programs of their host countries. According to the study, these newcomers are actually on average more qualified than the general population of their host country, which helps many of them to quickly find work and contribute to the social funds themselves.

So then, why the outcry from German cities complaining about the sharply increasing welfare handouts for Romanians and Bulgarians? Duisburg, Dortmund, Mannheim and Berlin are demanding help from the federal government and the EU, as entire neighborhoods are being overwhelmed by these new arrivals.

Orkan Kösemen, the project manager for integration and education at the Bertelsmann Stiftung, doesn't see a contradiction in the situation. At 70 percent, the labor force participation rate of these new citizens is a fair bit higher than that of the German population. "But among these Romanians and Bulgarians who have moved here are also those without qualifications and who won't find a job," he said. "These people are coming together in a few cities, and even specific districts. This concentration can then seem like a flood."

Low wages hardly enough to live on

Elke Tiessler-Marenda, an expert in migration with Caritas Germany, agrees with Kösemen. The poor, in particular, will move to where the rents are cheapest. "In Dortmund, for example, the Bulgarians and the Romanians have moved to existing problem areas," she said. "The municipalities are complaining that they have been left to deal with these problems alone, and rightly so. And not just the most recent problems, but also the existing problems."

Of course, said Tiessler-Marenda, there are certainly those immigrants who set out from the start to take advantage of the social safety net. But, she said, these are the exception. When immigrants do end up applying for welfare, for the most part it's because they overestimated their chances in their new adopted country. "They come here to work, only to find that they aren't able to live just on hard work alone."

Tiessler-Marenda gave the example of Romanian butchers working for starvation wages in the slaughterhouses. Upon visiting a Caritas counseling center, they were told that they had the right to social welfare payments to top up their earnings. "That isn't welfare fraud, this was provided when the Hartz-IV support services were introduced," she said. "It applies to native Germans just as much as it does to immigrants. The problem is that these immigrants are not earning enough."

Tiessler-Marenda considers the controversial court decision in NRW to be quite conclusive. The fact that people who came to Germany to look for work are not entitled to welfare could not apply indefinitely. "They languished for more than a year without an income. The court said this was no longer acceptable and ruled that they were entitled."

She doesn't share in the fear that the ruling will lead to waves of Romanians washing up on Germany's shores in order to tap social welfare benefits after living in misery for a year. In fact, she pointed out that there have already been prior rulings which granted Romanians and Bulgarians access to these funds, more than most people realize. "This news was passed around, and yet it still didn't result in a run on the funds."

Only a few black sheep

Kösemen, of the Bertelsmann Stiftung, tries to put the figures into perspective: when the numbers of immigrants who decide to return home are taken into account, then it's just about 40,000 people per year who are migrating from Romania and Bulgaria. Only a small number of these people are making welfare claims.
He doesn't discount the possibility that some people only make the move to Germany to take advantage of state assistance. "There are black sheep everywhere," he said. But a country with 80 million people should be able to handle a problem like that, he added.

Kösemen isn't too bothered by the current debate over the new immigrants. Such discussions heat up every once in a while, only to die down again. "Ten years ago, when Poland entered the EU, people were also talking about a wave of immigration. Now, it's simply the turn of the Romanians and the Bulgarians," he said.
It's all a question of perspective, he added. "We know that it's actually not that many immigrants who come from poverty. But they are concentrated in just a few areas, and that always seems like a flood when experienced up close."

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Old Oct 13th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #2
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

nothing new there. there have been plenty of studies about this problem and they all showed that immigrants are not a burden on the welfare systems and in fact contribute to them even if only slightly. there are also local people who abuse the welfare systems but it is in both cases only a few bad apples.
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Old Oct 13th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #3
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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nothing new there. there have been plenty of studies about this problem and they all showed that immigrants are not a burden on the welfare systems and in fact contribute to them even if only slightly. there are also local people who abuse the welfare systems but it is in both cases only a few bad apples.
I am an optimist, in 100 years here or there some people will get it.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 03:35 AM   #4
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

The people that think otherwise and say ignorant things are not the people that would read this. Or read, period.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 03:45 AM   #5
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

Seriously. We are talking Bulgarians and Romanians. People from former Soviet block. People from those countries never had social parasitism in their mentality. The socialist ideology pretty much enforced the opposite. In most of those countries the social parasitism - that is not having a job - was legally a crime. For real.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 05:51 AM   #6
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

It's a European Commission report!!!!

Anyway, it's not just state benefits, it's the burden on schools, our health system, transport and policing - all of which are proven facts. In Britain all are at breaking point.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 07:18 AM   #7
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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It's a European Commission report!!!!

Anyway, it's not just state benefits, it's the burden on schools, our health system, transport and policing - all of which are proven facts. In Britain all are at breaking point.
How? People working, paying taxes, paying pension funds, and social/health care, their transport tickets/cards? They are generally young, productive, motivated, and paying all this, how exactly are your words the truth? They don't use the pension funds, they fill them. They don't use the welfare system, they fill it (as you saw), and so on, and so on.. Explain in a little bit more details pls.

Why the Eastern Europeans from the ~10 countries, and not the others? Why not the Brits without work? Why not those from the ex-colonies, from the other parts of the World? why the EEs and especially Poles, Romanians, and the laughingly stupid idea- Bulgarians (we are around 9mln around the World, and ~7.5mln in Bulgaria)? If Poles and Romanians are quite a number, let's explain the others..

This is like Bulgarians complaining all the time against the excessive behaviour of young Brits, Germans and those from Scandinavia at the sea resorts, and how much it costs, and how it's immoral, and "because of them we can't go to our sea anymore" etc. etc

Same laugh for me though
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #8
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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How? People working, paying taxes, paying pension funds, and social/health care, their transport tickets/cards? They are generally young, productive, motivated, and paying all this, how exactly are your words the truth? They don't use the pension funds, they fill them. They don't use the welfare system, they fill it (as you saw), and so on, and so on.. Explain in a little bit more details pls.

Why the Eastern Europeans from the ~10 countries, and not the others? Why not the Brits without work? Why not those from the ex-colonies, from the other parts of the World? why the EEs and especially Poles, Romanians, and the laughingly stupid idea- Bulgarians (we are around 9mln around the World, and ~7.5mln in Bulgaria)? If Poles and Romanians are quite a number, let's explain the others..

This is like Bulgarians complaining all the time against the excessive behaviour of young Brits, Germans and those from Scandinavia at the sea resorts, and how much it costs, and how it's immoral, and "because of them we can't go to our sea anymore" etc. etc

Same laugh for me though
They do not always come with money, higher education or technical knowledge.
sometimes they just wanna leave their country to a stronger place and its not easy for them finding a job and if they do sometimes its bc they are willing to get a lawer pay then a Local So they reduce labor market pay
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 07:59 AM   #9
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

For example, Israel Absorbed a huge migration from Russia at the end of the 80S over the 90S, more than half a million people.
They really helped the economy but, most of them were physicists, mathematicians, lots and lots of doctors.

at Any stage they werent welfare recipients \ Social Security income support etc etc
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #10
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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Originally Posted by pla View Post
How? People working, paying taxes, paying pension funds, and social/health care, their transport tickets/cards? They are generally young, productive, motivated, and paying all this, how exactly are your words the truth? They don't use the pension funds, they fill them. They don't use the welfare system, they fill it (as you saw), and so on, and so on.. Explain in a little bit more details pls.

Why the Eastern Europeans from the ~10 countries, and not the others? Why not the Brits without work? Why not those from the ex-colonies, from the other parts of the World? why the EEs and especially Poles, Romanians, and the laughingly stupid idea- Bulgarians (we are around 9mln around the World, and ~7.5mln in Bulgaria)? If Poles and Romanians are quite a number, let's explain the others..

This is like Bulgarians complaining all the time against the excessive behaviour of young Brits, Germans and those from Scandinavia at the sea resorts, and how much it costs, and how it's immoral, and "because of them we can't go to our sea anymore" etc. etc

Same laugh for me though
People arrive in Britain and access State healthcare, education, policing, housing etc. etc. immediately for free without having put anything into the pot that funds it. They may start to pay some taxes but it does not cover (by any stretch) what they take out in services immediately. To cover what they take out they would have had to have made significant historical tax payments. Any tax payments they make do not cover the full cost of the services they access - not even close.

If they do claim benefits (and many do) they have not made the payments that cover the cost. The same with State pensions.

Schools are already over subscribed - our Trade Unions are saying so and the statistics already confirm this. Police cannot cover all our cases - statistics are crystal clear. Our NHS cannot cope - our statistics are crystal clear. There is already significant unemployment and a housing shortage. Our Social Services cannot cope with child protection issues. The list goes on.

The report is a lie in that it fails to address the fact that immigrants have not paid historically for the services they access immediately.

There are Eastern Europeans who claim benefits for children who are actually living in their home country. There are thousands of Eastern Europeans who are known criminals in their home country and who are now in British prisons for crimes committed in Britain, and there is nothing we can do on their release. They haven't paid for the millions being spent on their time in prison.

No other country has the NHS as per the UK - completely free. And immigrants use it without having paid for it - it has been paid for historically by tax payers. Paying a bit of tax on arrival does not cover the full cost.

There is no doubt a problem with British born people living on State benefits, but that is a separate issue. Having further immigration is just adding to the burden on social services and unemployment which we cannot already maintain.

I would not expect to go to Romania or Bulgaria (or any country) and immediately start accessing free education, policing, health, housing, state benefits etc. And I have the brain power to know that even if I got a job in Romgaria and paid tax it would not cover the cost of what I was taking out.

As for your bit about tourists behaving badly in your seaside resorts, well, 2 points: any healthcare due to their debauchery is covered by their health insurance, and they are there for 2 weeks at most spending money. They are not demanding free education for their children, free healthcare, free social services for all their lives and the lives of their offspring and other family members.

As I say the report is 'positioned' at best and a lie at worst.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 08:51 AM   #11
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

NID. Watch as resident right wing agenda pushers like Expat come in with their excuses and theories that "show" evil European states with high immigration rates are going broke because of their welfare systems.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 09:00 AM   #12
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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NID. Watch as resident right wing agenda pushers like Expat come in with their excuses and theories that "show" evil European states with high immigration rates are going broke because of their welfare systems.
But they are! Haven't you being following what has happened across Europe and to the Euro?!!!
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #13
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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But they are! Haven't you being following what has happened across Europe and to the Euro?!!!
true, european countries are going broke because of their welfare systems for the rich, splashing out big money to save the banks.

instead of blaming immigrants and the poor for milking a few pennies from the state you should complain about this a bit more.

and i don't get the argument about immigrants not having paid for their education and other blablabla. british children also didn't pay for it, they will pay for it throughout their lives. historically workers have invested money in the welfare system and all workers continue to invest into it no matter where they were born. in fact, you completely fail to mantion the fact that plenty of workers who come to britain have been educated elsewehere. britain didn't invest a penny into their education and reaps the benefits of having them in the country. it all evens out. no country in the world would allow immigration if it wouldn't benefit from it.

the right-wing demagogues will continue to blame immigration and the poor in general for problems they created themselves, of course.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 10:01 AM   #14
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
true, european countries are going broke because of their welfare systems for the rich, splashing out big money to save the banks.

instead of blaming immigrants and the poor for milking a few pennies from the state you should complain about this a bit more.

and i don't get the argument about immigrants not having paid for their education and other blablabla. british children also didn't pay for it, they will pay for it throughout their lives. historically workers have invested money in the welfare system and all workers continue to invest into it no matter where they were born. in fact, you completely fail to mantion the fact that plenty of workers who come to britain have been educated elsewehere. britain didn't invest a penny into their education and reaps the benefits of having them in the country. it all evens out. no country in the world would allow immigration if it wouldn't benefit from it.

the right-wing demagogues will continue to blame immigration and the poor in general for problems they created themselves, of course.
not every Migration is bad again its totally up to the Country's ability to absorb people, her economic situation and the type of population she need to absorb (age, education, culture)
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #15
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

Romanians and Bulgarians are not able to access benefits till January 1, 2014 as per their accession to the EU. Hard to gauge its impact now.
For the rest of the Europeans already eligible check out the reality.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...migration.html

Quote:
More than 600,000 unemployed European Union migrants are living in Britain at a cost of £1.5 billion to the NHS alone, according to an EU report.

The authoritative study, obtained by The Sunday Telegraph, shows the number of jobless European migrants coming to Britain has risen dramatically in the past five years, intensifying demands for the Government to renegotiate EU membership.

Opponents of the EU seized on the figures to suggest Britain could not afford to allow European migrants to come here at will while continuing to provide a universal benefits system.

The 291-page report, to be published this week by the European commissioner in charge of employment and welfare, discloses:

• The number of “non-active” EU migrants in Britain has risen by 42 per cent between 2006 and 2012;
This is just the EU version of the data. The actual figures would be higher as the Britishers don't note the nationality of the resident while extending benefits due to it being based on residence.
It's not the fault of migrants though. If you offer something for free people (whether immigrant or native) would be stupid to not accept it.
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