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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:32 AM   #16
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Even if you include the Australian of the following year, that's 2-2 with Masha winning 2 and pushing Serena to 3 sets in AO. Could still be argued she had the momentum. You can't say their rivalry would have been like Chris and Martinas anymore than I can say it would be like Maria and Serena's
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:33 AM   #17
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

I can definitely agree with the Peak v Peak debate that Serena is greater, but those arguments dont hold up because theyre hypothetical and subjective.

I think we'll have to wait a few years to see what happens ultimately in terms of achievements, but it's not impossible that Serena surpasses Graf.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:36 AM   #18
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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And YEC, so she beat Serena in 2 big event finals in 2004.
Still does not cut it.
Both Martina N and Seles had proven themselves over several years unseating their rival.

Your Maria example simply lack enough data to predict what would have happened.

Tell me why do you resist or refuse to consider the example given and insist Maria example, which is woefully inadequate
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:37 AM   #19
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

I think people are just saying that Serena would win in a match of Peak Serena vs Peak Graf.
Achievements-wise of course, Serena will never surpass what Graf has accomplished.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:39 AM   #20
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

There is no argument that makes sense.

Even in her peak, Serena did not dominate the way Graf did in her peak. Serena had the serve but her consistency, movement, touch, variety, net game, etc. were no where near Graf's at her peak.

The competition argument doesn't make sense because half of Serena's slams have come in the weakest period of women's tennis in the Open Era.

So until she gets the numbers, it's just fanboys, sensationalists or people who don't know their tennis history.

At the end of the day, it's a fun argument and it's nice to have preferences. But if we're being serious and put our fanhood aside, let's just wait until Serena gets to 22 because she's likely to get there.

Then we can have a toss-up argument and it'll be fun.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:40 AM   #21
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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I think people are just saying that Serena would win in a match of Peak Serena vs Peak Graf.
Achievements-wise of course, Serena will never surpass what Graf has accomplished.
Well she surpassed her on AO singles titles won and could very well tie or even surpass her Wimbledon and/or her US Open singles tally.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:40 AM   #22
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Still does not cut it.
Both Martina N and Seles had proven themselves over several years unseating their rival.

Your Maria example simply lack enough data to predict what would have happened.

Tell me why do you resist or refuse to consider the example given and insist Maria example, which is woefully inadequate
Did you even read what I posted I'm not suggesting it would have been a Maria Serena situation but it cold have been just as much as it could have been a Martina Chris one. It never occurred therefore thousands of theoretical possibilities exist and frankly you all just use the stabbing to discredit Steffi of her achievements. How about celebrate what Monica achieved rather than attempt (and usually fail) to discredit one of the GOATs.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:41 AM   #23
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
There is no argument that makes sense.

Even in her peak, Serena did not dominate the way Graf did in her peak. Serena had the serve but her consistency, movement, touch, variety, net game, etc. were no where near Graf's at her peak.

The competition argument doesn't make sense because half of Serena's slams have come in the weakest period of women's tennis in the Open Era.

So until she gets the numbers, it's just fanboys, sensationalists or people who don't know their tennis history.
I think this a fair point, but misses part of the argument--I don't think the Serena side is saying that Serena consistently dominates others day in, day out every match like Graf did, rather than that at their peak level, Serena def. Graf. (In other words, Graf's peak can last longer/be more consistent and Serena's may be only lasting a oouple matches, but Serena's potential level > Graf in a best 2 out of 3 match.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:42 AM   #24
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
There is no argument that makes sense.

Even in her peak, Serena did not dominate the way Graf did in her peak. Serena had the serve but her consistency, movement, touch, variety, net game, etc. were no where near Graf's at her peak.

The competition argument doesn't make sense because half of Serena's slams have come in the weakest period of women's tennis in the Open Era.

So until she gets the numbers, it's just fanboys, sensationalists or people who don't know their tennis history.

At the end of the day, it's a fun argument and it's nice to have preferences. But if we're being serious and put our fanhood aside, let's just wait until Serena gets to 22 because she's likely to get there.

Then we can have a toss-up argument and it'll be fun.


and 1994-1998.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:42 AM   #25
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Steffi vs Serena debate....hmmmm which way do I lean....
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:43 AM   #26
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

My two favorite players of all time...a win win as far as I'm concerned!

I think they're only two meetings pretty much summed up their rivalry and possibly what would have been had they come up in the same era.

Graf won the first time they played 6-2 3-6 7-5. Serena won the second time 6-3 3-6 7-5 - One was older a step slower and not quite what she once was, the other hadn't learned to construct points and was overly erratic and not yet the player she would grow to be so for those reasons they were perfectly matched and it was an even playing field. Coincidently they both went on to win majors the very same year they played each other twice. Steffi won her last major of her career and Serena won the first major of hers. The torch was officially passed.

And thank God for Serena cuz I was soooo depressed when Steffi retired, Serena helped me carry on- and cariry on she did. I sure know how to pick the very best!!!

Serena vs. Steffi = tie (too close to call) CO-GOATS
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:46 AM   #27
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by Nicolás89 View Post


and 1994-1998.
Who currently is stronger than Aranxta was in her prime?
From 94-98 the only players Graf faced in slam finals were Aranxta, Seles, Hingis and Davenport.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:47 AM   #28
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by MB. View Post
I think this a fair point, but misses part of the argument--I don't think the Serena side is saying that Serena consistently dominates others day in, day out every match like Graf did, rather than that at their peak level, Serena def. Graf. (In other words, Graf's peak can last longer/be more consistent and Serena's may be only lasting a oouple matches, but Serena's potential level > Graf in a best 2 out of 3 match.
Understandable. But PeakRena was 2002-2003. Graf had better court movement, consistency in terms of dependable strokes, variety, net play, etc.

Serena has the advantage in serve, return and power. That's about it.

I don't think anyone can definitely say PeakRena was better than PeakGraf in a best 2 out of 3 match.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:49 AM   #29
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
There is no argument that makes sense.

Even in her peak, Serena did not dominate the way Graf did in her peak. Serena had the serve but her consistency, movement, touch, variety, net game, etc. were no where near Graf's at her peak.

The competition argument doesn't make sense because half of Serena's slams have come in the weakest period of women's tennis in the Open Era.

So until she gets the numbers, it's just fanboys, sensationalists or people who don't know their tennis history.

At the end of the day, it's a fun argument and it's nice to have preferences. But if we're being serious and put our fanhood aside, let's just wait until Serena gets to 22 because she's likely to get there.

Then we can have a toss-up argument and it'll be fun.
Good to know John McEnroe doesn't know his tennis.

The smug sense of superiority reeking from this post is smothering.
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Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:51 AM   #30
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Who currently is stronger than Aranxta was in her prime?
From 94-98 the only players Graf faced in slam finals were Aranxta, Seles, Hingis and Davenport.
What exactly makes Aranxta better than Sharapova?
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