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Old Dec 8th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #46
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post


Yeah, like Vera would have not destroyed herself because of Arantxa's game. Vera has been succesful in today's game because in this BBB era she is one of the best and nobody has the defensive skills players in the 90s had.

I have always thought that Zvonareva is the Anke Huber of the 2000s. She is very good, has good attacking skills but not good enough to deliver in the latter stages of the Grand Slams. They also have a very similar record in big tournaments. Every time you saw Arantxa play Huber you could feel the German hit bigger and for the casual fan she was "the better player". But you know what? Tennis is not only about hitting hard and Arantxa knew a thing or two about it. Their H2H? Arantxa lead 12-2. Enough said
Did you only follow the tour since 2000? Your biaised take over two eras is just funny. Zvonareva certainly had great defensive skills as well, as much as Wozniacki. I certainly won't say there were better defensive skills in the 90's than in the 00's! It appears that the tour evolved to the perfect opposite from the 90's to now. Baseline games being way more long, tough and exhausting, the kind of game Zvonareva kinda excelled at. The best players of today certainly kept a bitter taste of it. You know, Zvonareva may have failed in some slam finals, but kept many others from reaching those same finals on the way.
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Old Dec 8th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #47
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by Joseosu19 View Post
Uh, no one is expecting her to have the same results...it has been 18 years since 1995...she is over 40...for her to have the same results would be miraculous. The point is if the game was "so deep" as you claim, then a player who was lower end top 10 in her prime shouldn't be top 50 when over 40 years of age.
You get the point of my post. I think Kimko's results in late years show how good a player she is and how a top player can adapt and play in a different era. Of course, you can't expect her to be top five by now, because she is a top 40 player aged over 40! I don't think you can compare her to Navratilova for 3 reasons: Martina retired still a top ten but not top five at just 38 years old, and Kimiko got back to the tour at that age, and is now 43 (five years are to be considered after a certain age ) just to try to play again at that level, and that leads to my second reason, Date had to re enter a Tour she had left more than a decade before, and everyone knows how hard is for a player after a long (more than 6 months) absence to get a rythm again; while Martina never stopped until 1994, she was playing all those years and living the daily evolution of the game and keeping match play and competitiveness intact. And the biggest reason is that Martina could compete at a higher level near 40 not because the tour was weaker, but because she had been the one who had pushed the limit, the player who took the game and power to another level and made everyone work to keep her pace, she reigned supreme for several years and had an unmatched Golden Run when she was several steps ahead of the rest of the Tour, so of course she could be competitive with most players in her late tennis years because she had made the game evolve. Kimiko was a top ten player in her peak (not consistent top five to be so considered like, for instance, Martínez), so she was following a tide in tennis, not swimming ahead, for her to be still among the top more than a decade later. It's remarkable enough that she can still compete, and earn the occassional upset that, if you believe the current game apostles, players from the past would never be able to, as though tennis was played with wooden rackets back then!
I can see the general speed and power of the game has increased, but most of the top players are not to be feared compared to notable players from the past like Navratilova, Sabatini or Seles, I really don't see how they could not compete and beat today's players provided the rackets and, of course, if they could be in a comparable age. Serena at a her peak level is another thing, the same as I don't see Zvonareva, Kvitova, Radwanska or Wozniacki having much to do against an A-game Graf or Seles; Azarenka and Sharapova could her her own a little more but they are an echelon below to the German and the now American: the very best players of different eras are better comparable among themselves.
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Old Dec 9th, 2013, 01:44 AM   #48
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Re: Legends

Here's Kimiko at 26 years old facing Graf in the semi final of 1996 Wimbledon, and Kimiko at 43 years old facing Serena Williams in the third round of 2013 Wimbledon.

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Old Dec 17th, 2013, 02:10 AM   #49
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post
I agree with most of rollingraces analysis in this thread. It is accurate, fair and really knowleadgable. But then I read this



How on earth would you consider Mauresmo a legend and not ASV one? People all but forget her today? I'm not going to start a war here but let's put it in perspective. In 20 years people is going to remember Arantxa 4 Grand Slams, her awesome GS finals vs Graf (RG 89, UO 94, W 95, RG 96), a total of 16 Grand Slam singles finals, a fighting spirit like no other... and yeah, we will remember Mauresmo, total GRAND number of 3 singles finals, the first one basically remembered for her coming out and a good semis match, the second one remembered by Henin's retirement and the 3rd one by a very good, thrilling match. This and a weak mentality. ASV is a league or two above Mauresmo and history will put these two where they belong. I mean, Sabatini is up there with Arantxa, well above Mauresmo who her "legend career" spanned briefly for one year: from the YEC 2005 to the YEC 2006. Apart from that, she had a mediocre career (for a top player, that is) and never had the kind of pedigree Arantxa and Gaby had.
The truth is that neither Mauresmo or ASV are Legends of the game. The legends are: Lenglen, Wills, Marble, Connolly, Gibson, Court, Bueno, King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles, Serena, Venus and Justine.
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Old Dec 28th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #50
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by thrust View Post
The truth is that neither Mauresmo or ASV are Legends of the game. The legends are: Lenglen, Wills, Marble, Connolly, Gibson, Court, Bueno, King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles, Serena, Venus and Justine.
I'd have to agree with that.
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Old Dec 29th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #51
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Re: Legends

This kind of "truth" makes me laugh. Where do you draw the limit of the "legend concept"?
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Old Dec 30th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #52
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
This kind of "truth" makes me laugh. Where do you draw the limit of the "legend concept"?
Multiple GS champion, solid #1, domination of the circuit at some point of her carreer...all this comes to my mind.
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Old Dec 31st, 2013, 05:20 PM   #53
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post
Multiple GS champion, solid #1, domination of the circuit at some point of her carreer...all this comes to my mind.
So why are Arantxa or Lindsay not on the list... you'll always find a blurred line at some point... and I feel that some players can be called "legends" even when their results don't fit...

I'm not sure what to think of that "legend" word, if not that it basically helps to be simplistic in overstatement.

I prefer a dedicated and informative approach to any pompous and hierarchical consideration.
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Old Dec 31st, 2013, 06:42 PM   #54
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
So why are Arantxa or Lindsay not on the list... you'll always find a blurred line at some point... and I feel that some players can be called "legends" even when their results don't fit...

I'm not sure what to think of that "legend" word, if not that it basically helps to be simplistic in overstatement.

I prefer a dedicated and informative approach to any pompous and hierarchical consideration.
I have been puzzled for years by the hierarchical obsessions of many tennis fans and pundits, especially as there is no other mainstream sport that I know of with so many "discontinuities" in its history and so many quirks in terms of demands placed on the players. Just think of the effects of the switch from decades of amateurism/shamateurism to open professional competition had on the game. Just think of the changes in racket size, shape, and composition, and the differences between natural gut strings, earlier generation synthetic strings, and current generation synthetic strings. Just think of what difference an extra month of "off season" could have made to careers, or conversely, what the stress of playing an 11-month, fully-global schedule could have done to some of the players from the early days who had a three month off season. To say nothing of the shadows cast in all directions by performance enhancing drugs. "Ranking the greats" makes no sense.

It would make more sense if the legend concept could include players who were involved in memorable matches or were such fan favorites (even if it wasn't necessarily for their tennis) that their impact on the game was far greater than their career stats. Players like Novotna and Kournikova certainly have "legendary" aspects to their histories, and even if you could norm for contemporary bias, would still be better known among the great unwashed than many of the multi-Slam moldy oldies.
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Old Jan 3rd, 2014, 10:01 AM   #55
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
So why are Arantxa or Lindsay not on the list... you'll always find a blurred line at some point... and I feel that some players can be called "legends" even when their results don't fit...

I'm not sure what to think of that "legend" word, if not that it basically helps to be simplistic in overstatement.

I prefer a dedicated and informative approach to any pompous and hierarchical consideration.
Arantxa is deserving of a place in my opinion - she was also a top class doubles player.
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Old Jan 16th, 2014, 03:54 PM   #56
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post
Multiple GS champion, solid #1, domination of the circuit at some point of her carreer...all this comes to my mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
So why are Arantxa or Lindsay not on the list... you'll always find a blurred line at some point...
As much as I like Arantxa she definitely was not a solid #1 nor she dominited the circuit in any era

Neither Lindsay, winning 3 GS titles (in 3 different years) having played +50 Grand Slams does not fit into the Legend category to me. She was great, not a legend. You can call it a "pompous and hierarchical consideration" as you said, to me is just a way to separate two different group of very good players.

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Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post
and I feel that some players can be called "legends" even when their results don't fit...
We can agree somehow. The likes of Anna Kournikova or Althea Gibson are tennis legends for different reasons too and their names will always be remembered.
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Old Jan 16th, 2014, 04:01 PM   #57
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Re: Legends

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Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
Arantxa is deserving of a place in my opinion - she was also a top class doubles player.
Arantxa was very weak against the top players indoors. You cannot place her in the same category as the greatest of the game having won just one tournament indoors during her career and having reached just one YEC final (lost). It would not make sense.

That is the same reason why I cannot place Serena as the best ever. She's no doubt one of the top 3-4 best players ever but for a player who has played no less than 12 French Open and has gotten to the semifinals just 3 times in Paris, saying that she is the best sounds like a bad joke. Steffi is still #1 IMO
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