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Old Jun 23rd, 2013, 01:07 PM   #166
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by Lesborah View Post
Lol go tell that to the many rape victims who were sober. Disgusting
you're either a troll or a complete idiot if you keep claiming that being sober/conscious is equally safe as being unconscious. really hope it's the former for your sake.
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Old Jun 23rd, 2013, 04:21 PM   #167
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by Lesborah View Post
Actually you are wrong. About me.
I actually knew it. I've even said this many times.


Yes, sadly that's the case.
But if we don't expect our OWN friends and family to help us and to be kind, helpful, then what's the point in having fun? In truly living? I don't want to be all paranoid.

Besides while you've said is totally true, I think it is also fair to say many women are raped while sober.

So I fail to see how my point was actually unvalid : I think we, girls, can drink with our friends. I don't want to be paranoid around them.






Lol go tell that to the many rape victims who were sober. Disgusting

And I know that, thank you.
You're becoming quite an annoying being on this board for the past week, let me tell you this you're not entitled to being more right than the rest.
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Old Jun 23rd, 2013, 04:46 PM   #168
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

A metaphor from the (high crime rate) NYC of the 80s, when it came out that a transit cop had advised a young white couple getting off a train in East Harlem @ night (without a specific destination, IIRC) that it wasn't a good idea for them to do so. There was a media brouhaha, with the inevitable PC teeth gnashing from the NY Times (whose editor lived in upscale Riverdale and publisher in ritzy Scarsdale).

Had they done so anyhow (fully their legal right) and been mugged or worse, would the perp(s) have been wrong? Absolutely, but the well-meaning cop (who I believe got only a reprimand) might have prevented a serious crime. Could they have been attacked (with the young woman maybe raped) in a "white neighborhood", of course. And were there far too many black & Hispanic crime victims in predominantly minority areas, also yes.

But the (unfairly harassed by liberal columnists, IMO) cop wasn't being a social scientist, he knew the area he was in probably better than the young couple in question, and made a recommendation that decreased their odds of becoming victims of a potentially quite serious crime. I think the metaphor to one not increasing her chances of being a rape victim is obvious. And while she was bullied into apologizing, Serena was right!
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Old Jun 23rd, 2013, 04:46 PM   #169
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by Nicolás89 View Post
You're becoming quite an annoying being on this board for the past week, let me tell you this you're not entitled to being more right than the rest.
What?
Just because I think Serena was totally in the wrong and that her interview was totally out of the line ?

I have strong principles, if that makes me annoying, then so be it.
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Old Jun 24th, 2013, 04:18 AM   #170
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Don't mean to be inappropriate here, but one thing I've never understood about women is why most of them have rape fantasies.

Just don't get it.

I also wonder if orgasming while breast-feeding can be considered a form of infant rape.

Women are mysterious creatures.
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Old Jun 25th, 2013, 11:57 PM   #171
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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I thought every comment on this forum was race related?


I have not participated in the earlier discussions on this subject but the following video from a men's rights advocate brings up a few issues that are worth considering:





I did touch upon this just a bit a long time when discussing the "Wilding" incident that was used by racist Hitlerian Rush Limbaugh as an excuse to attack blacks. When the incident was found to have been a fabrication by white NYC police he refused to apologize for his racist rants. Significantly, Limbaugh's racist fans refused to do the same.

Interestingly, most MRA advocates are conservatives who often deny that there is racism in this society. But in this video the men's right advocate is a white female who makes a significant case that racism is very real in this society along with reverse sexist double standards.
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Old Jun 26th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #172
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

The essence of what Serena said: that too much drinking can leave you exposed to some unwanted and sometimes even dangerous situations, is true and can't be disputed. I mean: drinking so much that you black out/ lose conciousness? Really? Is that the parties you enjoy, Lesborah?

What Serena did wrong is commenting about the punishment. It gave the impression she was more concerned about the guys than about the girl who was the victim.
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Old Jun 26th, 2013, 08:13 PM   #173
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Frankly, as a rape victim, to me some of the opinions: " The victim is responsible doing this and this" are disappointing.

I won't even comment in detail how hard it is to battle this in everyday life when you already scream inside you of the horror and the humiliation, and all the questions on you being responsible for your own despair on top of your own "What could I have done differently?". It's difficult.

Yes, alcohol is THE number one rape drug but the point still stands. All rape victims can be told that one or the other things they did made their rape easier.

I don't know. I think people, famous or not should think twice before they comment such stories because life is difficult and complicated enough.
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Old Jun 26th, 2013, 08:28 PM   #174
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by pla View Post
Frankly, as a rape victim, to me some of the opinions: " The victim is responsible doing this and this" are disappointing.

I won't even comment in detail how hard it is to battle this in everyday life when you already scream inside you of the horror and the humiliation, and all the questions on you being responsible for your own despair on top of your own "What could I have done differently?". It's difficult.

Yes, alcohol is THE number one rape drug but the point still stands. All rape victims can be told that one or the other things they did made their rape easier.

I don't know. I think people, famous or not should think twice before they comment such stories because life is difficult and complicated enough.
i dont know you, u dont know me but im truly truly sorry u were hurt so much.

all the ppl who say stupid ppl have a small brain, Zero emotional intelligence or never experienced \ met rape victims.

rape is NEVER EVER your fault, i know ppl always think "what could i have done..." its not u, its never even about sex!! its about sick ppl and power

i know 4 ppl, 3 woman 1 men all under age when they were rape, one was her Her aunt's husband, his was a teacher, the third and her big brother the last was a Neighbor

its never the drink, its not how u dress, its not bc u were asking for it, its not bc the other couldnt control his libido...its power and sick ppl nothing more

ppl have no idea what the victim is going throw, non of them live a normal lives, some hide their fears and even something small can bring them back and triger things and make them cry for hours and hours, as a close friends to 3 of them and looking and feelings things from outside i can hope u will never lose ur hope for ppl, men or woman, i hope u have a love that is with u and understand u, i hope u have friends who hug u and cry with u like i cry with some of my friends.

keep on living and never be shamed, this is ur victory above all..

i never ever gave a bad rep to ppl im holding myself not to do so
i never ever hurted a soul but if i would have meet any of the sick ppl who hurt the ppl i know..nothing in the world could save them..
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Old Jun 26th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #175
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Punky, thank you for your words. I feel a bit uneasy because I just wanted to make people think, I wasn't looking for attention. But thanks again.

It is very much as you said. I was 16 but even 17 years latter it can happen. I thought I regained confidence in men and humans in general but lately I think I was wrong. I won't believe men anymore. I know there are good people but it's too risky. They all seem to be a dream.

Anyway. I hope Serena thoght again and would express her opinion differently next time. Especially the part of being virgin or not.
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Old Jun 26th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #176
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by pla View Post
Punky, thank you for your words. I feel a bit uneasy because I just wanted to make people think, I wasn't looking for attention. But thanks again.

It is very much as you said. I was 16 but even 17 years latter it can happen. I thought I regained confidence in men and humans in general but lately I think I was wrong. I won't believe men anymore. I know there are good people but it's too risky. They all seem to be a dream.

Anyway. I hope Serena thoght again and would express her opinion differently next time. Especially the part of being virgin or not.
Amber, i think its closer to call ppl their names

i doubt ppl are that stupid to think u seek for attention and i guess confidence is something that come and goes, men can be very crule, lucky for me i had the luck of meeting only the best of them.

its drops in the ocean, they make it dirty but not all the ocean is dirty..

good ppl are every were, sadly we live in times when ppl have more ways to conect but they are more lonely..i think we as human are losing whats is important...family, love, closeness, friends, caring..compassion..


i hope serena will take her words back, donte money to rape victims Organization and volunteer, not bc nike told her its bad press, but bc she is truly am sorry.

im truly sorry i cant give u a hug..but u should know there are different ppl...
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Old Jun 27th, 2013, 01:04 AM   #177
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by pla View Post
Frankly, as a rape victim, to me some of the opinions: " The victim is responsible doing this and this" are disappointing.

I won't even comment in detail how hard it is to battle this in everyday life when you already scream inside you of the horror and the humiliation, and all the questions on you being responsible for your own despair on top of your own "What could I have done differently?". It's difficult.

Yes, alcohol is THE number one rape drug but the point still stands. All rape victims can be told that one or the other things they did made their rape easier.

I don't know. I think people, famous or not should think twice before they comment such stories because life is difficult and complicated enough.


Not sure that is entirely true. The one thing about rape that people side step (perhaps understandably considering the horror of its nature) is the matter of male rape victimization. A few years ago someone in this forum used as avatar a scene in which a white man was to be raped by a black man in prison. In this society male rape victimization does not involve alcohol, is perhaps the most brutal crime that occurs on a daily basis, yet it remains the subject of humor in tv, movies, and ironically enough, in this very forum. Do a Google on prison rape and male victimization and you will be utterly shocked by the horror stories that occur.

Just as an example a couple of years ago I read a blogger's report about prison rape in NY. He indicated that among the horrors was the fact that male prison guards give pornography to the prisoners in order to stimulate further attacks. The female guards, according to that report, went a step further by furnishing the attackers with Viagra. Don't know if this is true today but having known as many police officers as I did during my years in NYC none of this would surprise me. In any case, alcohol was not a factor in these terrible attacks and none of the perpetrators or their supporters were or are punished.
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Old Jun 27th, 2013, 10:34 PM   #178
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

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Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
Its not for the discussion, its for my own understanding. Its fallacious from an anthropological perspective to use the term culture in this fashion.

There is no such thing as "rape culture," or "murder culture." Misogyny and patriarchy exist, yeah, but I don't understand this rape culture stuff. I was hoping for some clarity, even the wikipedia page on rape culture is a mess.
Rape is not a synonym for misogyny. All rapist are misogynists, but not misogynists are also rapist. The OP obviously didn't want us to talk about misogyny in general and he/she couldn't find a better term than "rape culture". Whoever comes up with a better term should tell us, I also have a problem with this term. "Misogyny" can't be a substitute, it has a much broader meaning.
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Old Jun 27th, 2013, 11:38 PM   #179
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

I could share my story. I wasn't raped, but I was a victim of violence.

I was almost 18 when it happened. I was at a party with a friend. The guy came to me and invited me to go somewhere and have a drink with him. I said: "Thanks, but no. I'm not interested." The party got really boring, but the friend who came with me was still having fun, so I asked for his car keys, I wanted to sit in his car, listen to music until he decides to go home. There was nothing that could suggest it would be dangerous for me, I lived in a small, peaceful and safe town. When I went outside, my "admirer" was waiting for me. He started insulting me, yelling and cursing. He said that I was flirting with him all night long and that I was trying to humiliate him all the time. I tried to be civil, I told him that he must have confused me with someone, that I have a boyfriend, that he misunderstood something. He didn't give up, he told me that I was a little stupid and arrogant slut. I lost my patience and told him to go to hell. Then he punched me in the face and pushed me. There was a lot of ice, I was on high hills and I fell. Then he started kicking me in the head...

Luckily, my friend came in that moment and he literally saved me. He put me in the car and beat the crap out of that guy. In the morning I didn't go to police, I went to tell my father what happened, so my father went to his house and beat him up. After that the guy I was dating back then beat him up as well. Of course, a sane person would say that I should have gone straight to police, but I was really scared and the justice system in Serbia is a completely mess, that guy would probably get away, unpunished. So I have no regrets about that.

Was I drunk? No, I didn't drink at all that night, but that guy was drunk. Did I say or do something that would put me in danger? Not really. I went outside alone, but, as I said, it's a small, peaceful town, I've always felt very safe there. Did I tell something that would infuriate him. Well, I told him to go to hell after 15 minutes of arguing and trying to explain myself. When my father came to beat him up, what did that guy say? He said I asked for it.

So, what's the solution? To teach your daughter not to drink, not to go out, not to talk to anyone. Well, from my experience, it makes more sense to teach your son to respect women, to take "no" as an answer, to teach them that violence is never a solution. I truly believe that Serena is a good person, but her point of view here is pretty sexist, although she's a woman. If we want the society to change, we can't expect only men to change, women need to change as well. I can't spend my life in fear, afraid to go out, afraid to have a drink, to talk to someone, just because I'm a woman and women have to be extra careful always.

That being said, binge-drinking is dangerous, for men and women, for adults and teens. So many bad things can happen, you're not in control. You may not get robbed, murdered, raped, you can simply get hit by a car. Kids should never drink, while adults should drink moderately and act responsible in every situation. It's fine to have some drinks with friends, to relax, but to pass out or whatever. That's stupid, it's not called "having fun", that's just stupid.
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Old Jun 28th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #180
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Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

There is something incredibly wrong with everyone who espouses the following view: If you ask questions as to why the victim was in a particular situation or question the level of responsibility of the victim, you are already seen as shifting the blame away from the perpetrator and onto the victim. You need education.

In her original view, Serena reiterates that she is in no way blaming the victim. Yet people seem so excited to claim that she did.

Even though Serena's comments were insensitive and misinformed, you cannot fault someone for asking questions and hoping that all people are able to be free in their decisions while also being safe in their decisions. She of course goes a little further and suggests that her parents were being irresponsible, but once again, there is no instance of blame on either the girl or the parents. That was what I gleaned from her perspective. Practice some responsibility and you will be less likely to be in such a situation in the future. Though it may be a stretch, she may in fact be providing band-aid solutions through suggesting (insensitive) precaution.

Is it really wrong to ask why she was at a party with a lot of alcohol? Is Serena actually placing any sort of blame on the victim with such a question/statement? It seems she may be placing responsibility on the victim for placing herself in an untenable situation, but responsibility (for one's own safety) is much different from blame (for a crime). Based off the comments alone, Serena focus attention completely away from the rapists and onto the victim, but attention - like responsibility - is not the same as blame.

Similarly, not everyone has the same level of guard as they go about their lives. This may be influenced by a variety of factors:

As an article on thedailybeast.com mentions:

Quote:
As African-Americans, and even more so as African-American women, we are routinely forced to deal with the harsh reality that when bad things happen to black people, no one cares. Equally important: when bad things happen to black people, no one is brought to justice as a result. Need proof? Just Google the names Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. It took six weeks and massive protests around the country for the man who killed an unarmed black teenager to even get arrested. When was the last time the case of a missing or murdered black woman was heavily featured on the news and spoken about at length in the media? Black women do go missing, and we do get murdered every day. We also get raped. And so what is deeply instilled in many of us by our parents is the rule that you must have your wits about you at all times or face the real risk ending up dead.

You’re taught that you must take responsibility for your own wellbeing with the clear understanding that absolutely no one else is going to do it for you. This has always been the unspoken rule of the inner city and hardcore streets—places like Compton, California, where Venus and Serena were born.
There, they saw as very young children how easy it was to lose your life at a moment’s notice by simply wearing the wrong color, using the wrong hand sign, or by just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-comments.html

Nevertheless, this is conjecture, but it does provide a potential, alternative way of looking at someone else's (insensitive) perspective.

Regardless of anyone's viewpoint though or what actually happened, for every individual's future well-being and safety, we need to ask ourselves how did this situation arise to begin with? Howe can we prevent rapes to begin with? How can we prevent crimes or even the thoughts of acting on crimes to begin with? But questions such as these questions are very difficult to answer as we live our own lives, often finding ourselves confronted with environments with a high likelihood of criminality or sketchy behavior; as a result, our attention generally may shift to what we can do to protect ourselves and exercise precaution, which is a good and sometimes necessary way to steer our attention, since ultimately, while one is confronted with such a situation, the most we can control (to some extent) is where we physically place ourselves. If you are a boy or girl, man or woman, and you are with a lot of people you do not entirely trust, you need to evaluate the risk of you being in that situation more often than not, and should at least retain the ability to put your guard up and leave the situation if need be.

We should be able to be safe no matter where we go. We should be able to trust every other human being that they will give us both appropriate space and respect. Yet as humans, living biological creatures, we have to understand that there is risk involved in everything that we do. We also need to understand that each one of us is easily influenced by everything around us, and by everything that goes inside of us. And while we are not to blame if something bad happens to us, we should take necessary precautions (as with anything) to be more on the safe side if we can be. This is why we wear condoms, why we wear helmets, why we don't tell children to go out at night, why we watch our children at the playground, why we press food producers for greater transparency, why we apply for unemployment when we are jobless, why we wear safety equipment and/or train for thousands of hours if we decide to climb a mountain, this is why people feel hesitation about living in a violent neighborhood, this is why we don't get plastered with alcohol unless we are with the right company, this is why we prosecute rapists, this is why we teach the possibility of rape. To be safer, happier, and healthier. Until the world becomes a utopia for human beings, it is foolish to try to shame someone who asks questions such as Serena as if she was blaming the victim; shame her for the insensitivity of her comments and the fact that she suggests irresponsibility on the parts of the victims' parents when she really had no idea = fine and maybe necessary, but never ever jump to conclusions about or exaggerate someone's perspective, especially if you are out to correct or shame them. In no way is Serena saying "NEVER GO OUT, NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL, BE SUPER SCARED OF MEN", because clearly Serena does go out, Serena drinks, and Serena enjoys her mens. Through exaggeration and assumption, you may further or start to create an overcorrection culture which can be an inaccurate reflection of reality, which in turn, can create new problems.

Ultimately though, all of us are spectators in something from which we are so far removed. We actually do not know the fine details of all that had happened. All we know is that an innocent young female had been recklessly taken advantage of when she shouldn't have been. But, as others' in this thread have alluded to, we ask ourselves how this could have happened. We try to empathize with everyone involved even when we don't know the details and when we would like to prevent these situations in the future; with the rapists, most of us have little to empathize with because most of us do not understand how we could take advantage of someone like that, but with the girl, some of us know what it is like to be more careful, leave a situation once it starts to feel unsafe/sketchy, and/or frame our lives to find certain situations so unattractive that we don't find ourselves in them in the first place. This is also why attorneys were/are? still looking into the causes of how such a dangerous environment arose, after the convictions occurred. Until we can figure out how to prevent such occurrences from arising at all, we try to take necessary precautions, and I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to highlight those precautions. It is in no way shifting blame onto the victim. It is shifting responsibility not of the crime but of one's body, but that is an entirely different argument altogether.

To be fair, my own view on this is evolving as I go. (I also apologize for the wild grammar of this post). Perhaps the issue here may partially be a question of semantics and the understanding of our own views. Perhaps what people really do get upset about is where people place their attention. Even though we should take precautions, we truly should be able to feel safe when we are with other people. And regardless of the reality, how we should feel maybe should be our focus.
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Last edited by fufuqifuqishahah : Jun 28th, 2013 at 01:41 AM.
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