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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #16
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

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Originally Posted by mdterp01 View Post
Ummm no!! That heifa needs to stay right where she is.....RETIRED!!!
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:27 AM   #17
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

jeca will show her clay skills at roma and rg
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:30 AM   #18
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Clay is a slow surface that bounces relatively high.

Stosur's kicker comes up higher which helps her serve. Plus she's the kind of player who needs time to adjust to a ball in order to hit it right (on fast surfaces she always hits tons of frames because she doesn't have enough time to prepare). Clay allows her to have that extra time.

Serena is just the most dominant player of all players in the field. That's why she's winning.

Maria's strength is her ground game. She can hit a lot a groundstrokes without missing and work her way into the point as it wears on. Clay is perfect for that. It also gives Maria extra time to get to the ball (she slow lets be honest) which is a plus. Obviously, part of me still wonders why she good on that surface though...

The rest is either irrelevant or too inconsistent on clay
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:32 AM   #19
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

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Originally Posted by Navratil View Post
Justine should comeback every year to play the claycourt season
Actually, I wouldn't mind see that, if for no other reason than to see her get her ass handed to her. which I believe she would.

Justine's best quality was that she squeezed out every ounce of the highest percentage of her ability for sustained periods of time. Her problem was that that level couldn't be maintained. In short, she forced herself to OVERachieve and it was her OVERachievement that physically undid her.

I seriously doubt she could or would put that effort in again.

Now, to the topic:

I don't think it's that strange that Maria & Serena dominate clay. The women's game is different from the men. In the women's game, usually the best players (meaning top two or three) are strong on every surface. Hell, even Nav' eventually did well on clay. It seems to me there are fewer dominant clay "specialist" in the history of the women's game. Even ASV couldn't be counted out on other surfaces. Justine fits nicely in to that pattern as well. While clay was her STRONGEST surface, she was no slouch on any of the others.

so..., no. It's not weird that Serena and Maria dominate on clay.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:49 AM   #20
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Of the French Open champions that are still playing
Only a few if them have actually dominated in clay.

Dinara is gone
Kuzzie is recovering
AMG who cheats
Venus still injured
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Old May 15th, 2013, 04:36 AM   #21
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

It's constantly said that Clay is Serena's "worst" surface.
I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I think that Serena has had a very successful clay court career ...when she actually saw fit to play:

2002 French Open – Won
2002 Berlin – Final
2002 Rome - Won
2003 Charleston - Final
2008 Charleston – Won
2012 Charleston – Won
2012 Madrid – Won
2013 Charleston - Won
2013 Madrid - Won

I just believe that her problem is more 'enigmatic' than anything else.
In other words, her timing was bad, or she didn't include clay court tune-ups in her scheduling.

Plus, when she did play, she was either returning from injury (poor preparation...QuarterRena); injured (2005); absent (2000, 2006, 2011), or fluked out (2013).

The reasons have been many and across the board.

It isn't that it's her "worst" surface, but more so that she's missed so many years not playing on that surface.
Thus, we get a skewed career result compared to that of her other surfaces.

Btw, these are not excuses, but hopefully a much more reasonable and measured (though abbreviated) analysis that will hopefully serve to set the record straight.

Note:
Did not include Double and Mixed Doubles Clay Titles.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 04:50 AM   #22
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
It's constantly said that Clay is Serena's "worst" surface.
I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I think that Serena has had a very successful clay court career ...when she actually saw fit to play:

2002 French Open – Won
2002 Berlin – Final
2002 Rome - Won
2003 Charleston - Final
2008 Charleston – Won
2012 Charleston – Won
2012 Madrid – Won
2013 Charleston - Won
2013 Madrid - Won

I just believe that her problem is more 'enigmatic' than anything else.
In other words, her timing was bad, or she didn't include clay court tune-ups in her scheduling.

Plus, when she did play, she was either returning from injury (poor preparation...QuarterRena); injured (2005); absent (2000, 2006, 2011), or fluked out (2013).

The reasons have been many and across the board.

It isn't that it's her "worst" surface, but more so that she's missed so many years not playing on that surface.
This, we get a skewed career result compared to that of her other surfaces.

Btw, these are not excuses, but hopefully a much more reasonable and measured (though abbreviated) analysis that will hopefully serve to set the record straight.

Note:
Did not include Double and Mixed Doubles Clay Titles.

Charlston doesn't say much about "clay" really.It's almost "hardcourt"

clay is sarin's "worst" surface there's no doubt about that,but it's on sarin's own standard.

First,Sarin's BH on clay is not as effective as on other surface as she doesn't hit closed-stance,so she often comes one step short and can't hit through the BH

Second, her footwork overall is sometimes "sluggish" on clay.

Clay reduces the power on her serve,but Sarin also should bear in mind that it makes others serve slower,too.So ROS would a be equal important for Sarin on clay.In 09' 10' FO losses,She was aweful on return and should've done better.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:33 AM   #23
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Blame it on Stosur, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Petrova, Kuznetsova who used to be major threats on the surface, and nowadays is flop after flop
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:34 AM   #24
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b2b View Post
Charlston doesn't say much about "clay" really.It's almost "hardcourt"

clay is sarin's "worst" surface there's no doubt about that,but it's on sarin's own standard.

First,Sarin's BH on clay is not as effective as on other surface as she doesn't hit closed-stance,so she often comes one step short and can't hit through the BH

Second, her footwork overall is sometimes "sluggish" on clay.

Clay reduces the power on her serve,but Sarin also should bear in mind that it makes others serve slower,too.So ROS would a be equal important for Sarin on clay.In 09' 10' FO losses,She was aweful on return and should've done better.
Disagree with much of your post, but the above struck in particular.

The open stance is a BENEFIT on clay. Her coming one step short (if in fact she does as that could be left to a wide variety of interpretation) could be attributable to any number of things not the least of which is a less explosive FIRST step due to the surface. However, I don't even think that's it. I believe your premise is wrong. The open stance SAVES players - Serena included - from having to make that final closing, set-up step. The open stance ground stroke is more efficient for those players who have the trunk and upper-body strength to execute it. Clearly, of all the players on tour, Serena Williams is the most qualified in that regard. The OS stoke keeps players in the point LONGER. That's why many of the strongest, most athletic women on tour over the past 15 years adopted it to one degree or another. With the advent of more powerful racket technology and the baseline game becoming the the preeminent style, open stance ground strokes were simply a logical adaptive strategy.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #25
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b2b View Post
Charlston doesn't say much about "clay" really.It's almost "hardcourt"

clay is sarin's "worst" surface there's no doubt about that,but it's on sarin's own standard.

First,Sarin's BH on clay is not as effective as on other surface as she doesn't hit closed-stance,so she often comes one step short and can't hit through the BH

Second, her footwork overall is sometimes "sluggish" on clay.

Clay reduces the power on her serve,but Sarin also should bear in mind that it makes others serve slower,too.So ROS would a be equal important for Sarin on clay.In 09' 10' FO losses,She was aweful on return and should've done better.
Shale, stone, brick...

It's all still clay.
How else would we define the surface?

When you look up clay tournaments, they don't say, "but this isn't real clay".

And sure, we as fans understand that there are in fact differences in the characteristics (slow, fast, or somewhere in-between).
However, a clay court is still a clay court.

However, in a sense, you make my point in that certain types of clay surfaces play well into Serena's style/game.
Whereas, she has to completely change her style of play on the slow red clay.

Still, she's won at the highest level on it with her serve and baseline game (FO 2002).
And to get there she defeated some formidable opponents.

I agree that her (service) pace on "red clay" is significantly affected, but her placement isn't (on both serve and returns).
Also, I noticed Serena returning closer to the opponents baseline in more of her matches, pushing them further back each time.
I have to believe that this gives her more time set up for a volley, or reduce the opponent's pace on return.
She never did that before, unless I've been missing it all these years.

I know I'm alone on this, and maybe I'm well off the mark.
But I'll keep an even closer eye on this in the coming days and throughout the FO.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:38 AM   #26
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

I think everyone's perception of clay courter is Nadal like which is way off. If you look at the men's tour the likes of Berdych, del Potro and Soderling are similar to Sharapova and Serena. Yet del Potro and Soderling's best surface is clay.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:43 AM   #27
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

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Originally Posted by DOUBLEFIST View Post
Disagree with much of your post, but the above struck in particular.

The open stance is a BENEFIT on clay. Her coming one step short (if in fact she does as that could be left to a wide variety of interpretation) could be attributable to any number of things not the least of which is a less explosive FIRST step due to the surface. However, I don't even think that's it. I believe your premise is wrong. The open stance SAVES players - Serena included - from having to make that final closing, set-up step. The open stance ground stroke is more efficient for those players who have the trunk and upper-body strength to execute it. Clearly, of all the players on tour, Serena Williams is the most qualified in that regard. The OS stoke keeps players in the point LONGER. That's why many of the strongest, most athletic women on tour over the past 15 years adopted it to one degree or another. With the advent of more powerful racket technology and the baseline game becoming the the preeminent style, open stance ground strokes were simply a logical adaptive strategy.
Nice description.
I should have taken a more technical route as well. But Clay is not my forte at all.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:55 AM   #28
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
It's constantly said that Clay is Serena's "worst" surface.
I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I think that Serena has had a very successful clay court career ...when she actually saw fit to play:

2002 French Open – Won
2002 Berlin – Final
2002 Rome - Won
2003 Charleston - Final
2008 Charleston – Won
2012 Charleston – Won
2012 Madrid – Won
2013 Charleston - Won
2013 Madrid - Won

I just believe that her problem is more 'enigmatic' than anything else.
In other words, her timing was bad, or she didn't include clay court tune-ups in her scheduling.

Plus, when she did play, she was either returning from injury (poor preparation...QuarterRena); injured (2005); absent (2000, 2006, 2011), or fluked out (2013).

The reasons have been many and across the board.

It isn't that it's her "worst" surface, but more so that she's missed so many years not playing on that surface.
Thus, we get a skewed career result compared to that of her other surfaces.

Btw, these are not excuses, but hopefully a much more reasonable and measured (though abbreviated) analysis that will hopefully serve to set the record straight.

Note:
Did not include Double and Mixed Doubles Clay Titles.
Nice post.

What's interesting is that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of Serena's titles have been on some species of clay. But again, anyone who bought into the notion that Serena Williams is a clay slouch is delusional.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 06:00 AM   #29
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Re: Isn't it weird that Williams & Sharapova dominate on clay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLEFIST View Post
Nice post.

What's interesting is that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of Serena's titles have been on some species of clay. But again, anyone who bought into the notion that Serena Williams is a clay slouch is delusional.
I agree.
Even tennis analysts and commentators are guilty of this.
I cringe every time I hear a commentator say, "And Serena's worst surface is on clay".
And then she wins on it and people are surprised.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 06:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @danieln1 View Post
Blame it on Stosur, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Petrova, Kuznetsova who used to be major threats on the surface, and nowadays is flop after flop
Well, I don't think they would dominate Sharapova and Serena even if they were playing well. Surely they would trade wins.
Ivanovic is the one being stopped by Maria every single time on clay but yeah there would be a lot of interesting matchup if Stosur wasn't such a mess, Kuz as well, Petrova who is choking in first round of events etc......

The tour really is in a bad shape after the top 3, they're the only ones living up to their ranking. The rest is miserable.
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