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Old May 4th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #211
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
No you weren't. You had a fixed idea that she was losing during that time to everyone and it was only natural that Seles would be better.

I PROVED you wrong that she wasn't losing to MUGS. She was so consistent that she actually took back the No. 1 ranking. Have you got ANYTHING to say about that?

If you don't, maybe you should just shut up and keep believing that she loses matches when she wants and she wins when she wants and nobody else in the world matters, only Steffi and her 100% perfect tennis. Delusional.
this is a strawman argument, i never once said or implied those players were 'mugs' in fact they were some of my favourites of the time. well done for 'proving' something wrong that i never even said at any time

ok, you've revealed yourself now as rude and incapable of friendly disagreement.

i forwarded an argument that grafs results in majors in this period was uncharacteristic, that's all. if that provokes you to be antagonistic and insulting then i'm not interested, have a nice day x

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Old May 4th, 2013, 02:13 PM   #212
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

Could it not be argued that the reason Graf began having those losses in the early 90s at Slams was because her aura of invincibility was gone and her confidence was lost at no longer being the best? The player who ripped that away with straight set wins in Berlin and RG in 1990 would be Monica Seles.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 02:32 PM   #213
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Originally Posted by hingis-seles View Post
Could it not be argued that the reason Graf began having those losses in the early 90s at Slams was because her aura of invincibility was gone and her confidence was lost at no longer being the best? The player who ripped that away with straight set wins in Berlin and RG in 1990 would be Monica Seles.

hi, that's somewhat feasible, but graf had such dominant records against garrison, sabatini and novotna heading into those 3 matches that it's hard to imagine she lacked confidence against them at least, though perhaps she did against seles.

at most she may have lacked her previous confidence towards the end of a 3rd set, like in the garrison, novotna matches, or at the close of a second set tie break, as in the sabatini one
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Old May 4th, 2013, 02:38 PM   #214
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Originally Posted by lloyders76 View Post
hi, that's somewhat feasible, but graf had such dominant records against garrison, sabatini and novotna heading into those 3 matches that it's hard to imagine she lacked confidence against them at least, though perhaps she did against seles.

at most she may have lacked her previous confidence towards the end of a 3rd set, like in the garrison, novotna matches, or at the close of a second set tie break, as in the sabatini one
The perspective I was going from was of being removed from the throne and the impact it has on confidence. We saw with Federer that with Nadal taking over, he slipped and regained it once Nadal got injured. Or with Hingis, where she began losing the odd match to players she dominated. The loss to Novotna in '98 was the only time she lost to her at a Slam. With Seles too (barring 2002 US Open). No longer being the best makes a player lose confidence while also making others more confident against them.

And ofcourse, with the years all those players had in their dominance the only way to go is down so any loss may be viewed as "a drop in form or confidence". It makes for interesting discussion, nevertheless.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 05:31 PM   #215
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Originally Posted by hingis-seles View Post
The perspective I was going from was of being removed from the throne and the impact it has on confidence. We saw with Federer that with Nadal taking over, he slipped and regained it once Nadal got injured. Or with Hingis, where she began losing the odd match to players she dominated. The loss to Novotna in '98 was the only time she lost to her at a Slam. With Seles too (barring 2002 US Open). No longer being the best makes a player lose confidence while also making others more confident against them.

And ofcourse, with the years all those players had in their dominance the only way to go is down so any loss may be viewed as "a drop in form or confidence". It makes for interesting discussion, nevertheless.

yes, i take your point then, i just think graf's dominance over players like sabatini, garrison and novotna up to that point was complete so not sure if she'd have lost confidence against them so quickly just because seles beat her in those two finals
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Old May 4th, 2013, 05:54 PM   #216
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

If it wasnt for Seles we wouldnt have players like the williams sisters, sharapova, and many others who were very aggressive big attacking tennis indeed.
Monica before the williams sisters was my all time fave female player. She really changed the game so much since she appear on tour. But what was so tragic really haunted me as a fan. I will never ever forget that day. To me no player on tour deserve what Monica had gotten to her. I still put her as the most inspiring talented athlete wta has ever seen. She was so humble and so modest. God bless you Monica you will always be a legend to tennis.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #217
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_...ult_conviction

"In the evening following the Chinese Grand Prix, Sutil was involved in an incident with Genii Capital CEO and owner of the Lotus F1 team Eric Lux in a nightclub in Shanghai, where he cut Lux in the neck with a champagne glass Sutil himself had broken. On 16 May 2011, Lux announced that he had filed a criminal complaint for physical assault and grievous bodily harm against Sutil.[23] Force India owner Vijay Mallya backed up Sutil, saying that everyone need not be presumptive about the incident. He also refused to take action against Sutil until the case proceeded further.[24] Sutil himself apologised for the incident, which he described as unintentional.[25] On 13 January 2012, German prosecutors announced that Sutil would stand trial over the incident, charged with assault occasioning grievous bodily harm.[26] Sutil was convicted of the charge on 31 January 2012, for which he received an 18-month suspended prison sentence and was given a €200,000 fine,[27] to be donated to charity"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Wiesheu

Dr. Otto Wiesheu (born October 31, 1944 in Zolling) is a Bavarian CSU politician and an expert on traffic.

He is a lawyer. From 1975 to 1979 he was chief of the youth organization Jungen Union Bayern. Since 1974 he has been a member of the Bavarian Parliament. Since July 17, 1993 he has been Bavarian minister for traffic and the economy.[1][2]

On May 7, 2004 he was elected president of the Deutsch-Arabische Gesellschaft

Driving drunk

On October 29, 1983 he was driving his Mercedes 380 while drunk[3] (1.75 promille)[4] and killed Polish citizen Josef Rubinfeld in his Fiat and severely injured another man. Otto Wiesheu was given 12 months' probation.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #218
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Originally Posted by lloyders76 View Post
this is a strawman argument, i never once said or implied those players were 'mugs' in fact they were some of my favourites of the time. well done for 'proving' something wrong that i never even said at any time

ok, you've revealed yourself now as rude and incapable of friendly disagreement.

i forwarded an argument that grafs results in majors in this period was uncharacteristic, that's all. if that provokes you to be antagonistic and insulting then i'm not interested, have a nice day x
What argument? I've seen your sort of BS so many times over the years. I told you why and how Graf got back the No. 1 ranking in 1991 and held it for a few months. Absolutely ignores that point, keeps harping on about how Novotna and Co gets their wins. Like hingis-seles said, Graf's failure to continue to dominate as she used to 88-89 could be due to a number of reasons including loss of confidence against top players or top players becoming better themselves. None of which is because her form dropped. YOU DON'T BECOME NO.1 on the divisor system by dropping your form. It is a system that punishes inconsistency. Only the best players become No.1 on the divisor system.
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Old May 5th, 2013, 04:15 AM   #219
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
What argument? I've seen your sort of BS so many times over the years. I told you why and how Graf got back the No. 1 ranking in 1991 and held it for a few months. Absolutely ignores that point, keeps harping on about how Novotna and Co gets their wins. Like hingis-seles said, Graf's failure to continue to dominate as she used to 88-89 could be due to a number of reasons including loss of confidence against top players or top players becoming better themselves. None of which is because her form dropped. YOU DON'T BECOME NO.1 on the divisor system by dropping your form. It is a system that punishes inconsistency. Only the best players become No.1 on the divisor system.
um, you just admitted yourself she may have lost confidence and therefore played to a lower level.

and clearly i was referring to you making the completely false claim that i called the players graf lost to in that period mugs.

but listen, it's ok, you're a fan boy who is incapable of coherent, objective argument, i get that, take care x
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Old May 5th, 2013, 10:34 AM   #220
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

I would have thought any commentator on or fan of tennis could not do anything but accept that Seles was robbed and the other players profitted. Period.
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Old May 5th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #221
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

yes, we can all agree on that
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Old May 5th, 2013, 08:04 PM   #222
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Re: 20 years on Seles still carries attack scars

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Okay fair enough. I believe you and hopefully you ARE speaking the truth that the event still hasn't been forgotten in Germany. That's very good, because it was a sad day and even more so for Monica.
In fact it has been forgotten as tennis became irrelevant in this country after the Becker/Graf era ended.

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Hopefully idiots around the world won't discover wonderful benefits of Germany's justice system
I hope idiots around the EU won't discover that Serbia needs to get a EU membership.
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