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Old Apr 9th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #166
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
...I also think there is a degree of sexism in the way people vilify her. It's easy to fall back on ancient archetypes in our deeply, deeply patriarchal (global) society of "witch", "evil witch", "bitch" etc. Meryl Streep said as much in her comments on Thatcher's death: she has been way over-vilified by some quarters. I think is my longest ever post, I've been extremely busy the past few days and I've hadn't a chance to talk to anyone in "real life" about MT yet.
My thoughts exactly. Reminds me of the misogynistic vilification of Marie-Antoinette.
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Old Apr 9th, 2013, 11:43 PM   #167
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by ys View Post
Nope. Only if he crushed the pro-Soviet/pro-Communist/pro-totalitarian opposition. Any Soviet influence or threat of communism prevailing in the country was a supreme evil, and anyone having enough guts to put an end to it has my support.
I think few hundred thousand more of dead bodies of leftists back in 1917-1918 could have saved tens of millions of lives for my country down the line. Unfortunately for my country Generals Kornilov and Alexeev didn't have what the great Chilean leader had in them.
Anyone who could have successfully ran a military coup against democratically elected Hitler back in 1933 regardless of the cost would have had my unconditional support. But apparently not yours.
Allende was a socialist but his policies were no more interventionist than Bachelet's who is also a socialist, there was NO justified reason for a coup d'état in Chile, none. If there was ever one reason it may be the economic decline but that was caused by the Truck Driver's Union strike and this union remains to this day a right wing sympathetic union, of course they were gonna sabotage the gov. There were only 2 reasons for a military coup the US' hurt ego and Pinochet's (former friend of Allende) hunger for power, the coup d'état in Chile wasn't ever meant to be an operation to fight for democracy or free market, never.

And Pinochet was a murderer and a tyrant, because of him my dad had to run (literally) for his life and live the fugitive life for years just because of his beliefs, because of him my dad lost his job during the banking crisis in 1982 and him and my mom ended in the worst poverty............BELIEVE ME he was no saviour for no one but his friends and his supporters, for the rest life was harder and mostly unfair until 1990.
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Old Apr 9th, 2013, 11:49 PM   #168
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
Thatcher and Thatcherism have become the paradigm of Conservativism. They've gone so far beyond what actually was. Effect gets muddied with intent, political views with personal views. Discrete professional choices and comments become retrospectively amalgamated in some over-arching personal profile with which we can hang and quarter Margaret Thatcher.

Re: the UK's economy, the thing is we were never going to be able to compete with the BRIC countries in terms of manufacturing in the long term. Primary industries like mining were already effectively dead, secondary industries were doomed, and much of the economy of the North East therein.
This is another myth. Many of the industries were in a slump in the late 70s/early 80s, but all industries have peaks and valleys. German governments routinely subsidise industries that are in just as bad situations as our mining industry was, and even though they sometimes made losses on it in the short term, now they're reaping the benefits because, unlike us, they actually have industries to keep their economy afloat. Whereas the UK, because Thatcher dismantled our entire industrial base, now has nothing to bring the money in now that the financial sector, on which we were totally dependent, has now been milked dry.

(And again, before someone shouts at me: the Labour government are also to blame for not repairing the damage Thatcher did and rebuilding the industries she destroyed, but it doesn't change the fact she was the one who set us on this course.)


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The only fact I can see is that our economy was on the perennial slide and Thatcher's concerted transformation has ultimately impacted the economy for the better in the long term. Her de-regulation of the City, making London the Financial Capital of the world, our GDP actually increasing faster than most of our European compatriots for the first time in two hundred years. In fact - aside from Germany which has a fundamentally different economic model (i.e. they have a current account surplus, the UK has always been a borrower) we're pretty much in the best situation now in most of Europe, when you look at the bigger picture. The economic crash of 2007-9 isn't Thatcher's fault, we had her inept successor and a very strong labour government since then.
It's also not true to suggest the economy was always booming even when Thatcher was in office. Even going just on the GDP figures (and ignoring unemployment figures which are obviously even grimmer for Thatcher), throughout the whole of the 80s pretty much, the economy was stuttering, usually either in recession or growing slugglishly, with the exception of a brief boom in 1986-87. It was only from about 1994 onwards that the economy started growing consistently strongly -- but, if Thatcher somehow gets credit for that success that happened after she'd left office, then why doesn't she also deserve blame for the economic failure that eventually happened in 2008?
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Old Apr 9th, 2013, 11:51 PM   #169
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
Eek.
They're a minority Even though there's loads of us who aren't sad to see her die and are offended by the media making out that she was universally-loved, there's very few people who are actually actively celebrating.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #170
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

I totally bought the Judy Garland song n iTunes. It's super catchy! oh:

She was a heartless person who didn't give a shit about the poor. I understand why people who totally suffered and had a horrible time, would feel the need to throw a little party now. People still feel the consequences of her ruthless iron fist ruling till today, so yeah, it's totally understandable. I hope people realize we're talking about someone who called Nelson Mandela a terrorist.

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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #171
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by WonderFan View Post
And they're idiots making their own side look bad. I'm not saying they should mourn her (and I'm certainly not, referring to Maggie as a witch early ITT) but using "the B word" in a public demonstration looking like drunken louts only helps paint the British left badly; David Cameron and especially his likely successor as Tory leader post-2015 if he loses (London Mayor Boris Johnson) "send their thanks".

========================================

Regarding the savage attacks on ys ITT, first I disagree with most of what [that kulak ] said, which I usually do. I despised Pinochet, and have long embraced Latin American leftists like Cristina Fernandez of ARG.

But ys specifically used Pinochet as an example of the resolve he wishes the (center-left) in his native Russia did, to nip the Bolsheviks in the bud. (ys does omit that Kerensky staying in WWI was indespensible to Lenin taking power).

ys also said that he'd have embraced a coup by the German military to take out Hitler early on. Again too simple, as a "martyred" Fuhrer would have been an inspiration to his followers, but shows that ys is being "equal opportunity" in saying he'd support removing totalitarians from the chessboard early on.

Of course Lenin (under whom the pre-KGB Cheka was formed) and Stalin were responsible for countless deaths. As "anti-Stalin" Trotsky would have been, except his likely in wars to spread Communism. BTW, my Vietnamese flag relates to the US War of Aggression against a Ho Chi Minh who was a genuine indigenous freedom fighter.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #172
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

I absolutely hated her and everything she stood for but RIP
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 02:51 AM   #173
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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I can't believe you are surprised.

-snip-
This.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 04:00 AM   #174
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by Nicolás89 View Post
Allende was a socialist but his policies were no more interventionist than Bachelet's who is also a socialist, there was NO justified reason for a coup d'état in Chile, none.
If there was ever one reason it may be the economic decline but that was caused by the Truck Driver's Union strike and this union remains to this day a right wing sympathetic union, of course they were gonna sabotage the gov.
I kind of disagree. Soviet historians all agree that Allende's Chile, if left to run with no interference would likely go Cuba's way.

Quote:
And Pinochet was a murderer and a tyrant, because of him my dad had to run (literally) for his life and live the fugitive life for years just because of his beliefs, because of him my dad lost his job during the banking crisis in 1982 and him and my mom ended in the worst poverty............BELIEVE ME he was no saviour for no one but his friends and his supporters, for the rest life was harder and mostly unfair until 1990.
He might have been unnecessarily brutal, but in my opinion, when confronting potential left radicalism it is somewhat historically justified, as the potential price of not burning it to ashes is too high. Cubans were pretty soft to Moncada's perpetrators. Looks where that softness got them - 55 years of unending horror, with a total ruin of an economy, having to prostitute themselves to their enemies for peanuts. Would, in hindsight, many preferred a more brutal clampdown on lefties at that point? I think, most of people would. General Pinochet did that, and no matter how questionable his methods were, the result of now is one of the most free countries and definitely the best economy on the continent. I have to praise the historical result. Even if I disagree with unnecessary brutality, I don't know what it would have been like if it was not taken. I am not to judge the possibilities. One way or another Pinochet saved Chile from a communist potential and delivered a prosperous life to his nation. Whether you like it or not.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 04:11 AM   #175
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post

But ys specifically used Pinochet as an example of the resolve he wishes the (center-left) in his native Russia did, to nip the Bolsheviks in the bud. (ys does omit that Kerensky staying in WWI was indespensible to Lenin taking power).

ys also said that he'd have embraced a coup by the German military to take out Hitler early on. Again too simple, as a "martyred" Fuhrer would have been an inspiration to his followers, but shows that ys is being "equal opportunity" in saying he'd support removing totalitarians from the chessboard early on.

Of course Lenin (under whom the pre-KGB Cheka was formed) and Stalin were responsible for countless deaths. As "anti-Stalin" Trotsky would have been, except his likely in wars to spread Communism. BTW, my Vietnamese flag relates to the US War of Aggression against a Ho Chi Minh who was a genuine indigenous freedom fighter.
Thank you, Sir.. Again we write here for those who can read. Those who replace reading comprehension with primate reflexes can say whatever they want. I don't care.

It's perhaps unfortunate, but the historical tendency of democratic process tending to very likely ( and that much likelier and faster happening in immature democracies ) drift a country to an extreme - left or right, is all well known. I prefer a brutal interruption of such democratic process by any means if an honest objective is to prevent it from reaching that extreme. I indeed make no secret I support that.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 06:58 AM   #176
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Originally Posted by WonderFan View Post
In Glasgow and London some people celebrated Thatcher's death.

I didn't celebrate Margaret Thatchers death myself as she was just a senile old woman incapable of doing any more harm by the time she died. However, I won't criticize any of the millions of people whose lives were far more grieviously impacted by her apalling policies if they should choose to do so.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 07:39 AM   #177
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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Any Soviet influence or threat of communism prevailing in the country was a supreme evil
while i fully agree with this i think there is no need for you to peddle the myth that each and every leftist government ever was under soviet influence. the negative influence of the soviet "advisers" on the republican side in the spanish civil war was well docummented by george orwell in his book "a hommage to catalonia" but there was (armed) opposition to that on the republican side, so there was no need to support fascists.

people who helped hitler get to power thought exactly the same as you here. they supported him because they feared/hated communism and proved that the choice can be much worse.

also, nobody gives a fuck about wishful thinking of the soviet historians on allende. anti-communists and communists concur in their propaganda effort about the strength of the soviet influence for different reasons, the former in order to support fascist tyrants like pinochet and the latter in order to show how everybody wants to follow them.

and supporting khmer rouge and working with china shows that ideology was not the reason behind these policies. thatcher was essentially an enemy of workers and the poor, not of "socialism" or anything like that.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 07:42 AM   #178
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

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She was a bad prime minister who did lots of harm. People should rightly criticize and at times condemn her record as Prime Minister. I share such a negative opinion of her.

But to cite such a quote overstates things, she was no Hitler, no Stalin, who would be deserving of such comments. In her later years she had numerous strokes, and Alzheimers and that was already a kind of hell for her and a family. We don't need to wish her more.
a very fair post, i don't think people should celebrate her death. She didn't kill people like Hilter etc did.
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 08:34 AM   #179
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

One can admire her dedication and strong will, but otherwise she was simply a vile woman with a vile politic agenda
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Old Apr 10th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #180
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Re: Margaret Thatcher is Dead

Unbelieavble reactions.
Britain won't be "Great" if the Iron Lady wan't there.
British actually may thank her for putting them on the right road.
It's never easy and never will be. Every change needs some "blood" and hard decisions.
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