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Old Feb 22nd, 2013, 08:22 PM   #2146
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

All the hyping is just so frustrating in general. In the press, in TF whether it's Petra or Sloane... reading all this stuff makes me dislike a player a bit even though I had no reason to do so before
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Old Feb 22nd, 2013, 09:25 PM   #2147
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

Someone made a good point actually. Today you saw the world number 8 vs world number 10. 13 months ago that was the world number 1 vs world number 2. How time flies.

Brings back memories on the expectations of Petra going into 2012, she was expected to be world number 1 by the end of Australia, win multiple slams in the year. If you'd said then that in 13 months that would be #8 vs #10, I don't think you'd have got many takers.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 12:10 AM   #2148
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

I still remember that capitulation against Na in Sydney 2012 as if it what only yesterday. Crazy stuff.

It's as unsurprising as anything that people are trying to make certain players happen, not too dissimilar to the ATP in that respect naturally.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 01:24 AM   #2149
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
Yes, people are way too quick to jump on the Petra is back, Petra is going to be the best. It's obvious why, because when on her game is very pleasing on most people's eye, but I don't see how that clouds all objective judgment. To be the best you've gotta be beating the best, she isn't doing that at the moment.

And ha I think Cronin has somehow convinced himself into thinking Wozniacki would beat Azarenka even now. The thought pattern is heavily flawed. Vika was having much more problems with Radwanska prior to 2012. These days when you look at the matchup it should be heavily in Vika's favour. All the players who have troubled Vika recently have been players who can hit a big ball. Certainly I can't remember the last time she was troubled by a primarily defensive player.
I'm a bit confused as to why you say Vika had much more problems with Aga than Caro before 2012. As of the end of 2010 (Caro & Vika's last full match was in the fall of 2010), Vika's head to head was 2-4 against Caro and 4-2 against Aga. In 2011, Caro and Vika only played the 3-0 retirement set while Vika went 2-1 against Aga.

Fun fact...as far as I'm aware, Caro's highest winner total in one set is against Vika and her highest unforced error total in one set is also against Vika (two seperate matches).
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 04:02 AM   #2150
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh yeah i guess View Post
I still remember that capitulation against Na in Sydney 2012 as if it what only yesterday. Crazy stuff.

It's as unsurprising as anything that people are trying to make certain players happen, not too dissimilar to the ATP in that respect naturally.
ATP is even worse for me. I seriously think ATP is in for a big decline in 4-5 years unless some youngsters appear soon. I know the media is keen to hype up anyone, but I seriously think you're talking a massive drop off in quality between those and those currently at the top (maybe it was inevitable with the current top 4). You only need to look how time and again Raonic (for one example) has been exposed as unbelievably limited by the top guys, if that guy is the future I think you have problems. The problem is it's tough to see most of the list actually winning grand slams until the top guys just completely go away (which may not be that far away for Federer and Nadal ). This may work out well for WTA though, because I would say the overall quality coming through in WTA seems higher.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 04:35 AM   #2151
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

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Originally Posted by Protoss View Post
I'm a bit confused as to why you say Vika had much more problems with Aga than Caro before 2012. As of the end of 2010 (Caro & Vika's last full match was in the fall of 2010), Vika's head to head was 2-4 against Caro and 4-2 against Aga. In 2011, Caro and Vika only played the 3-0 retirement set while Vika went 2-1 against Aga.

Fun fact...as far as I'm aware, Caro's highest winner total in one set is against Vika and her highest unforced error total in one set is also against Vika (two seperate matches).
I was more reflecting on a matchup changing in Vika's favour using the Radwanska example as a direct comparison (to keep it short and brief). Reading what I said I think you have misunderstood the context of "much more problems", I meant Vika had much more problems with Radwanska - the H2H was in her favour, but it tended to be tight, now most neutrals don't even want to see the match anymore. Not "much more problems" than with Caro which I think you have understood my post as, so sorry for that confusion.

On to the Caro matchup, 2-4 is negative but doesn't tend to necessarily suggest actual matchup problems (especially when one is a retirement after 3 games). It's not 0-5 or complete beatdowns. Take the last 2 completed matches, Caro won these because she was the better match player. Now I know you are big Wozniacki fan (I like Wozniacki too fwiw), do you really think this is the case anymore? Caroline at the time of the Tokyo match was one of the mentally toughest players on tour. You believed the majority of times a match got close she would tough it out. She did this endlessly in 2010, toughing out matches. This just isn't the case anymore. She is actually mentally weak in tight moments now. A lot of Caro's 'decline' has been mental imo, your game declines if you lose belief and confidence.

The technical side has also changed. Vika has made great strides in most of her game since 2010, she has improved in nearly all aspects. The same isn't true for Caro, Caro for whatever reasons hasn't really technically improved her game since 2010. As a result, your game then declines if you suffer a big loss in confidence.

If they were to meet tomorrow, it is hard to predict anything but a Vika win imo.

Last edited by ozza : Feb 23rd, 2013 at 04:54 AM.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 04:40 AM   #2152
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

Raonic is the best of the bunch, and for all of his limitations he's actually got a winning record against Murray which is very impressive. I really do like him. On the other hand, I hope to god that Tomic doesn't happen. The media here, unsurprisingly, were trying unbelievably hard to make him relevant to the tournament, he was 7th favourite for the AO title with the betting agencies here.

I do agree that the WTA is more exciting at the moment than the ATP, and I'm one who keeps a pretty close eye on the ATP.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 05:01 AM   #2153
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

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Originally Posted by oh yeah i guess View Post
Raonic is the best of the bunch, and for all of his limitations he's actually got a winning record against Murray which is very impressive. I really do like him. On the other hand, I hope to god that Tomic doesn't happen. The media here, unsurprisingly, were trying unbelievably hard to make him relevant to the tournament, he was 7th favourite for the AO title with the betting agencies here.

I do agree that the WTA is more exciting at the moment than the ATP, and I'm one who keeps a pretty close eye on the ATP.
totally agree. Djoker is going to dominate for a while though. Then it really depends on whether the youngsters step up or not. I like dimitrov's style too, but he needs to be more consistent.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 05:19 AM   #2154
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

If there is one player who fits the bill of I can't warm to due to they hype around them, Raonic is that man. He leads the H2H vs Murray yes, but in the big match at USO he was utterly outclassed and devoid of ideas, similar to his match with Federer in Australia. I just don't think he is that good, he has a huge serve, but has tended to play too passively in big matches. He needs to show more to convince me, that if he is the future of mens tennis, it is going to be a good future.

Tomic isn't in too different a boat. I know he had a close match vs Tsonga today, but he has done way too little outside of Australia/the spotlight. His attitude hasn't been of someone who is going to be a top player yet, he has just thrown in way too many losses where he looks like he couldn't care less.

For me ATP is definitely on a downward slope from its peak, and WTA is on the rise atm. The impact of Federer and Nadal amongst driving interest cannot be underestimated, and it at least appears there influence is beginning to wane (I hope Nadal can come back to form ). Djokovic and Murray while great players, don't drive anywhere near the same interest.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 05:25 AM   #2155
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

Jerzy 'HOW MANY TIMES?!?!' Janowicz is a pretty exciting prospect too. Will we see an Aga/Jerzy team in the Hopman Cup in the coming years? That'd be cool.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 06:02 AM   #2156
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozza View Post
I was more reflecting on a matchup changing in Vika's favour using the Radwanska example as a direct comparison (to keep it short and brief). Reading what I said I think you have misunderstood the context of "much more problems", I meant Vika had much more problems with Radwanska - the H2H was in her favour, but it tended to be tight, now most neutrals don't even want to see the match anymore. Not "much more problems" than with Caro which I think you have understood my post as, so sorry for that confusion.

On to the Caro matchup, 2-4 is negative but doesn't tend to necessarily suggest actual matchup problems (especially when one is a retirement after 3 games). It's not 0-5 or complete beatdowns. Take the last 2 completed matches, Caro won these because she was the better match player. Now I know you are big Wozniacki fan (I like Wozniacki too fwiw), do you really think this is the case anymore? Caroline at the time of the Tokyo match was one of the mentally toughest players on tour. You believed the majority of times a match got close she would tough it out. She did this endlessly in 2010, toughing out matches. This just isn't the case anymore. She is actually mentally weak in tight moments now. A lot of Caro's 'decline' has been mental imo, your game declines if you lose belief and confidence.

The technical side has also changed. Vika has made great strides in most of her game since 2010, she has improved in nearly all aspects. The same isn't true for Caro, Caro for whatever reasons hasn't really technically improved her game since 2010. As a result, your game then declines if you suffer a big loss in confidence.

If they were to meet tomorrow, it is hard to predict anything but a Vika win imo.
Oh ok.

A slight correction, that 2-4 record wasn't counting the retirement as a loss (I generally don't count such short a match as a win or count a retirement in the 2nd set after winning the 1st set as a loss). Anyway, I don't think Caro would win if they played currently. My guess is that would probably be a rather lopsided loss or a lot less likely some sort of mental malfunction such as up 5-2 in a set and losing the set or having a bunch of break points but failing to convert and then winning barely a point afterwards.

I'd say Caro's game has regressed technically over the past year and a half or so, specifically her serve and forehand.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 06:29 AM   #2157
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

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I'd say Caro's game has regressed technically over the past year and a half or so, specifically her serve and forehand.
I tend to think a lot of this confidence based though. Her forehand is still a similar stroke as it was in 2010, but she just can't execute like she once could leading to more errors. The fact that Caro tends to make bad unforced errors on big points (take the last 2 points yesterday for example) for me points to a confidence issue. Part of this is probably due to when things get tight (your body gets tight), technical weaknesses tend to surface a lot more.

I obviously have no idea what Caro works on in practice, but for me she has neglected improving her actual strokes. She continually seems to work on her fitness, but she isn't losing matches now that she wasn't 2 years ago because of lack of fitness. She was supremely fit in 2010, and still is now. Unfortunately I don't really see that changing under Piotr, she has been under his tutelage for most of that time and I haven't seen any technical improvements, so I don't see it changing now. And I know Caro (and her mum) say they are happy and that is how she works best, so things are unlikely to change. But that's just my opinion.

PS. What goes on at Caro sub-forum exactly? I see some people post similar views to mine, yet when I posted there I got told to "f off" and "stop trolling" ?
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 03:17 PM   #2158
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

Petra from 6-2, 1*-0 to 6-2, 1-6 ha. This wasn't in the script!
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 03:21 PM   #2159
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

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I tend to think a lot of this confidence based though. Her forehand is still a similar stroke as it was in 2010, but she just can't execute like she once could leading to more errors. The fact that Caro tends to make bad unforced errors on big points (take the last 2 points yesterday for example) for me points to a confidence issue. Part of this is probably due to when things get tight (your body gets tight), technical weaknesses tend to surface a lot more.

I obviously have no idea what Caro works on in practice, but for me she has neglected improving her actual strokes. She continually seems to work on her fitness, but she isn't losing matches now that she wasn't 2 years ago because of lack of fitness. She was supremely fit in 2010, and still is now. Unfortunately I don't really see that changing under Piotr, she has been under his tutelage for most of that time and I haven't seen any technical improvements, so I don't see it changing now. And I know Caro (and her mum) say they are happy and that is how she works best, so things are unlikely to change. But that's just my opinion.

PS. What goes on at Caro sub-forum exactly? I see some people post similar views to mine, yet when I posted there I got told to "f off" and "stop trolling" ?
That could very well be. Alas to gain confidence she needs lots of wins and that's a lot harder when you're not confident.

Piotr said at the end of last season that they were gonna focus on fitness and Caro said something similar earlier this season.

I think it may be due to you being an outsider in Caro's forum. Some folks are sensitive to or suspicious of criticisms or perceived criticisms of Caro and or her game by strangers. I think this comes from all the Caro hating that's occurred in general messages as well as some previous posts by Caro haters or trolls in Caro's forum itself.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2013, 03:46 PM   #2160
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Re: •~º~º~Welcome to Vikaland~º~º~ • - Vikalume 2.

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That could very well be. Alas to gain confidence she needs lots of wins and that's a lot harder when you're not confident.

Piotr said at the end of last season that they were gonna focus on fitness and Caro said something similar earlier this season.

I think it may be due to you being an outsider in Caro's forum. Some folks are sensitive to or suspicious of criticisms or perceived criticisms of Caro and or her game by strangers. I think this comes from all the Caro hating that's occurred in general messages as well as some previous posts by Caro haters or trolls in Caro's forum itself.
Yes it is a catch 22.

And tbh to me as an outsider that just doesn't make sense. I can't really remember the last time I thought Caro lost a match because she wasn't fit enough. There seems far more glaring weaknesses that need sorting.
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