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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #106
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by marineblue View Post
I disagree, she cares. If she didn't give a crap she wouldn't cry. I think she was so frustrated because it seems that she got one of her infamous brainfreeze moments in this match. Nothing, just nothing worked .
I mean, every player has this matches sometimes but what worries her is that it will turn into the vicious circle like in the past. It looks like she's struggling again, who knows why.

As far as her rankings, for me she's a top 20 calibre of a player. No better, no worse. The thing is, even for a top 20 she CAN do better. Top 20 players win tournaments and challenge the elite. But Ana cannot do this very well, she is yet to get a win from a top 10 contender and the title wins... I mean, she failed to win Hopman Cup,enough said.

Hopefully she'll manage to forget this by the time Miami comes. I'd like to see something better than another flop.
I disagree.. this particular match wasn't a brainfreeze moment.. this was a not even trying kind of match.

The thing with Ana is not about top 20 caliber player, or top 30 or top 50 or any type of caliber player.. she is in a sort of limbro. The game path she and Nigel have chosen for her game is one that will never give her any success. It negates her strengths, so she now is a player without weapons. This means that she can beat the lesser players, who will be far less consistent.. but will lose to ANYONE playing remotely well (that can be a top player or not, doesn't matter..). Because someone playing remotely well won't be bothered at all by her shots. And Ana is a slow player, so she will be bothered by shots played by anyone in any sort of form. She hasn't been losing to top players, as we were made to believe.. Ana has been losing to the very first remotely in form player she faces.

And as long as she keeps on this game path she and Nigel chose, that's what is going to happen... That's why she can't have actually good wins here and there or even dream of a title.. in any tournament there will be someone in some kind of good form.. and that's enough for this game Ana has been playing to crumble like a house of cards.

For Ana to be some sort of caliber player, she would need to go back to basics, start it all again, choosing a game path that suits her, that actually brings her strengths back to life. Then yes, we could actually try to see what caliber player she is. Until then she is in an eternal limbo.. she can climb top 20 or fall down top 60 according to the number of remotely in form players she faces at tournaments.

And I guess her not even trying in this match shows she somehow knows how incredibly limited to others her current game is.. Ana isn't one with great fighting spirit the last few years, quite on the contrary, so she gets easily discouraged.
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #107
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by gaviotabr View Post
Yes.. in this match she was barely trying.. maybe she cries because she doesn't want any of it anymore? She was crying in that coaching time out as well.. totally choked up, didn't even reply when Nigel asked her questions.
She's not ready to make necessary adjustments, but she still hates losing. The result is frustration and tears. I'm very emotional myself, but I'm getting sick of her crying so often. She's not a little girl anymore, man up already. Decide what you want to do with your life and take the consequences of your choices as a grown up. I understand the tears after wasting match points, after losing a big final or some other big match. But after this match?
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 07:55 PM   #108
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

Ana needs to rock her world quite a bit. But in a positive way.
But only she knows (or doesn't) what she would need to do.
I guess she needs to search for some fitness "authority" in europe or america and follow his/hers program with top level professionalism.
Btw, fitness includes nutrition, monitoring, etc.
Maybe shoulder cirurgy? I don't know. Don't even know how serious it is.
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #109
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by gaviotabr View Post
I disagree.. this particular match wasn't a brainfreeze moment.. this was a not even trying kind of match.

The thing with Ana is not about top 20 caliber player, or top 30 or top 50 or any type of caliber player.. she is in a sort of limbro. The game path she and Nigel have chosen for her game is one that will never give her any success. It negates her strengths, so she now is a player without weapons. This means that she can beat the lesser players, who will be far less consistent.. but will lose to ANYONE playing remotely well (that can be a top player or not, doesn't matter..). Because someone playing remotely well won't be bothered at all by her shots. And Ana is a slow player, so she will be bothered by shots played by anyone in any sort of form. She hasn't been losing to top players, as we were made to believe.. Ana has been losing to the very first remotely in form player she faces.

And as long as she keeps on this game path she and Nigel chose, that's what is going to happen... That's why she can't have actually good wins here and there or even dream of a title.. in any tournament there will be someone in some kind of good form.. and that's enough for this game Ana has been playing to crumble like a house of cards.

For Ana to be some sort of caliber player, she would need to go back to basics, start it all again, choosing a game path that suits her, that actually brings her strengths back to life. Then yes, we could actually try to see what caliber player she is. Until then she is in an eternal limbo.. she can climb top 20 or fall down top 60 according to the number of remotely in form players she faces at tournaments.

And I guess her not even trying in this match shows she somehow knows how incredibly limited to others her current game is.. Ana isn't one with great fighting spirit the last few years, quite on the contrary, so she gets easily discouraged.
A limbo? Whoa, I see there's another word to add to my TF dictionary
Ana's results since Nigel got on board has got better. He helped her to become more calmer on the court. Last year she won some 3 set matches that 09 Ana would have not won. Also, her slam results were pretty solid,too.
I think that the worst decision she could make right now is to let Nigel go. Without him she wouldn't be in top 20 right now. She's a top 20 player now, she does have what it takes to win some titles and with Nigel at her side she could probably do it. However, she should be more realistic about her goals,IMO and don't aim too high. Top 20 contenders are not talking about big YEC but about winning some titles and having a good year, I guess. Ana probably still has a top 10 mindset, but her game isn't good enough to reach those echelons.
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 08:59 PM   #110
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by marineblue View Post
A limbo? Whoa, I see there's another word to add to my TF dictionary
Ana's results since Nigel got on board has got better. He helped her to become more calmer on the court. Last year she won some 3 set matches that 09 Ana would have not won. Also, her slam results were pretty solid,too.
I think that the worst decision she could make right now is to let Nigel go. Without him she wouldn't be in top 20 right now. She's a top 20 player now, she does have what it takes to win some titles and with Nigel at her side she could probably do it. However, she should be more realistic about her goals,IMO and don't aim too high. Top 20 contenders are not talking about big YEC but about winning some titles and having a good year, I guess. Ana probably still has a top 10 mindset, but her game isn't good enough to reach those echelons.
Tell me ONE in form player Ana has beaten since she took on Nigel?

I'm not saying Ana should drop Nigel.. I'm saying until they see that the path they took for her game is a dead end one that makes her weaponless she will be in a limbo.. She can beat the out of form players because her game is somewhat stable, but can't beat anyone remotely in form because there is absolutely nothing in her game to hurt those players. Her FH doesn't make tinkles.. her serve is a walking disaster..

I doesn't matter what her goals are.. she could have as a goal to win a MM tournament.. it would still be a frustrated goal, because in every tournament there will be a remotely in form player. She could have as a goal to be a top 15 player, but then she needs some luck to face as little in form players as she can in draws..

But yes, Ana still has a wrong mindset.. the core of this being choosing a game that negates her own talents.
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 09:33 PM   #111
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by gaviotabr View Post
Tell me ONE in form player Ana has beaten since she took on Nigel?

I'm not saying Ana should drop Nigel.. I'm saying until they see that the path they took for her game is a dead end one that makes her weaponless she will be in a limbo.. She can beat the out of form players because her game is somewhat stable, but can't beat anyone remotely in form because there is absolutely nothing in her game to hurt those players. Her FH doesn't make tinkles.. her serve is a walking disaster..

I doesn't matter what her goals are.. she could have as a goal to win a MM tournament.. it would still be a frustrated goal, because in every tournament there will be a remotely in form player. She could have as a goal to be a top 15 player, but then she needs some luck to face as little in form players as she can in draws..

But yes, Ana still has a wrong mindset.. the core of this being choosing a game that negates her own talents.
Sloane Stephens,for example. I don't know what you see as 'in form' player, if that's someone who's not injured and play well even though they do not win events or only those who are in the elite and winning many tournaments. I see it as the first option.

Her game is OK now, she can come back from behind sometimes although still cannot do that against the best.

I think winning an international/Premier event is a pretty realistic goal for someone in top 20. Competition is not always tough,especially at new venues.
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #112
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by marineblue View Post
Sloane Stephens,for example. I don't know what you see as 'in form' player, if that's someone who's not injured and play well even though they do not win events or only those who are in the elite and winning many tournaments. I see it as the first option.

Her game is OK now, she can come back from behind sometimes although still cannot do that against the best.

I think winning an international/Premier event is a pretty realistic goal for someone in top 20. Competition is not always tough,especially at new venues.
After losing to Ana at the USO Sloane Stephens spent months away from the courts. Why? She had a big tear in the abdomen during that tournament. The match before that, Sloane was taken to 7-5 in the third by Tatiana Malek. Sorry, can't count Slone as an in form player at that time.

In form is anyone playing remotely well.

Ana's game is worthless.. harmless.. she has no weapons.. that's not ok at all. She wins matches by being stable, meaning the other player gifts enough points. But she isn't fast enough, or has a good enough FH (and it was once one of the best in the game! How things have fallen!), serve is craptastic..

So yes.. she can be a journeywoman, maybe top 20 forever, she will face enough players she can beat by being more stable. But winning tournaments? Sorry.. no, no matter what the tournament is, there will always be someone remotely in form, enough to beat the stable game.

To have any significant win, or to get any title, Ana would actually have to go back to a game that brings her weapons to life.
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Old Mar 13th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #113
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

Maria Kirilenko beat all "Ana's executioners" - Petra and Aga, thank yo so much
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 05:08 AM   #114
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by gaviotabr View Post
Tell me ONE in form player Ana has beaten since she took on Nigel?
Was she beating in form players before Nigel? It's got nothing to do with him. It's been like that since 2008. He brought that game plan because she couldn't win a single match. And she started winning and making average results. I thought that they were supposed to continue working on her game, but how can you work with her? Does she use any of her free time to work on her weaknesses, to improve something? When did she take like few weeks to make an improvement? She has a light schedule, there is a time. Whole April, for example. She's always the last player to start preparing during the off season, she's one of the last players to arrive at a place where the tournament is played. When did she arrive in Pattaya? Add to that her weight issues, injuries, fitness problems. What can you do with such a player? Help her stay in top 15, make her reach R3 or R4, that's it.

And even that's overachieving, a testimony of her talent and luck. Poor work ethic, unnatural playing style, top 5 schedule and she manages to stay top 15 for a year. Wow!
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 08:42 AM   #115
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Was she beating in form players before Nigel? It's got nothing to do with him. It's been like that since 2008. He brought that game plan because she couldn't win a single match. And she started winning and making average results. I thought that they were supposed to continue working on her game, but how can you work with her? Does she use any of her free time to work on her weaknesses, to improve something? When did she take like few weeks to make an improvement? She has a light schedule, there is a time. Whole April, for example. She's always the last player to start preparing during the off season, she's one of the last players to arrive at a place where the tournament is played. When did she arrive in Pattaya? Add to that her weight issues, injuries, fitness problems. What can you do with such a player? Help her stay in top 15, make her reach R3 or R4, that's it.

And even that's overachieving, a testimony of her talent and luck. Poor work ethic, unnatural playing style, top 5 schedule and she manages to stay top 15 for a year. Wow!
Spot on unfortunately.
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 09:34 AM   #116
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by gaviotabr View Post
After losing to Ana at the USO Sloane Stephens spent months away from the courts. Why? She had a big tear in the abdomen during that tournament. The match before that, Sloane was taken to 7-5 in the third by Tatiana Malek. Sorry, can't count Slone as an in form player at that time.

In form is anyone playing remotely well.

Ana's game is worthless.. harmless.. she has no weapons.. that's not ok at all. She wins matches by being stable, meaning the other player gifts enough points. But she isn't fast enough, or has a good enough FH (and it was once one of the best in the game! How things have fallen!), serve is craptastic..

So yes.. she can be a journeywoman, maybe top 20 forever, she will face enough players she can beat by being more stable. But winning tournaments? Sorry.. no, no matter what the tournament is, there will always be someone remotely in form, enough to beat the stable game.

To have any significant win, or to get any title, Ana would actually have to go back to a game that brings her weapons to life.
OK,well, if in your opinion anyone Ana has beaten recently has been out of form and there's nothing to her game anymore then I see no point in arguing about this with you
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 11:59 AM   #117
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Was she beating in form players before Nigel? It's got nothing to do with him. It's been like that since 2008. He brought that game plan because she couldn't win a single match. And she started winning and making average results. I thought that they were supposed to continue working on her game, but how can you work with her? Does she use any of her free time to work on her weaknesses, to improve something? When did she take like few weeks to make an improvement? She has a light schedule, there is a time. Whole April, for example. She's always the last player to start preparing during the off season, she's one of the last players to arrive at a place where the tournament is played. When did she arrive in Pattaya? Add to that her weight issues, injuries, fitness problems. What can you do with such a player? Help her stay in top 15, make her reach R3 or R4, that's it.

And even that's overachieving, a testimony of her talent and luck. Poor work ethic, unnatural playing style, top 5 schedule and she manages to stay top 15 for a year. Wow!
She beat Bartoli, Petrova, Dementieva twice and Azarenka twoce in 2010, and she played 2 close stes against peak Woz
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 12:09 PM   #118
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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She beat Bartoli, Petrova, Dementieva twice and Azarenka twoce in 2010, and she played 2 close stes against peak Woz
You need a clarification here. When Gaviotabr says "in form", it means someone who plays on a very high level atm, top 5 level. Ana had those types of wins that you mentioned after hiring Nigel too. Against Zvonareva, Wozniacki, Bartoli, Petrova, Kuznetsova, Fran, Kirilenko, Kvitova etc. But that's not what she meant. Beating Sharapova, Vika, Serena, Errani, perhaps Kvitova or Aga, that would be beating an in form player by Gaviotabr's standards.
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 12:37 PM   #119
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Was she beating in form players before Nigel? It's got nothing to do with him. It's been like that since 2008. He brought that game plan because she couldn't win a single match. And she started winning and making average results. I thought that they were supposed to continue working on her game, but how can you work with her? Does she use any of her free time to work on her weaknesses, to improve something? When did she take like few weeks to make an improvement? She has a light schedule, there is a time. Whole April, for example. She's always the last player to start preparing during the off season, she's one of the last players to arrive at a place where the tournament is played. When did she arrive in Pattaya? Add to that her weight issues, injuries, fitness problems. What can you do with such a player? Help her stay in top 15, make her reach R3 or R4, that's it.

And even that's overachieving, a testimony of her talent and luck. Poor work ethic, unnatural playing style, top 5 schedule and she manages to stay top 15 for a year. Wow!
I'm not saying she should drop Nigel... but this game path has a dead ceiling and she already reached it. She could have the work ethic of Nadal, it wouldn't take her anywhere with this game path. She could practice 24/7, try her hardest to improve her game, with this game path, it wouldn't matter. Its a dead end, and won't do for more.

Other than that, yes.. I agree.
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Old Mar 14th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #120
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Re: Indian Wells-Miami

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You need a clarification here. When Gaviotabr says "in form", it means someone who plays on a very high level atm, top 5 level. Ana had those types of wins that you mentioned after hiring Nigel too. Against Zvonareva, Wozniacki, Bartoli, Petrova, Kuznetsova, Fran, Kirilenko, Kvitova etc. But that's not what she meant. Beating Sharapova, Vika, Serena, Errani, perhaps Kvitova or Aga, that would be beating an in form player by Gaviotabr's standards.
NONONONONONO... I mean playing remotely well.. not top 5 at all.

So with Nigel Ana beat injured Zvonareva (who has barely played since), slumping Petrova (who was losing to everyone and their mothers at the time), downward spiral Woz, sick Bartoli, injured Kuznetsova (who only played a handful more matches until having to have a knee surgery).. Fran? I mean.. just no... I give you Kvitova at Fed Cup.

My standards for this are really low right now.. I'd take her beating the likes of Barthel.. someone FAR and AWAY from being even top 10 level, but who is in some sort of form... but.. she just got a bagel from Barthel.
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