[Start da Game]

Originally Posted by thrust

I agree with you concerning that FO final. I saw it about a year ago on the Tennis Channel. What surprised me is how many errors Graf made. She looked like the better player as her shots were deeper and more forceful than Monica's for most of the first two sets. I really do think Steffi was lucky not to have to play a prime Evert or Court, who were more consistant and could move Steffi around the court. A prime Navratilova would give Steffi fits too, especially on faster courts. Steffi played in a weaker era than Court-King, Evert-Nav, or the Williams-Belgians 00-08 which is why she won 22 Slams and is overrated IMO.

steffi did handle peak navratilova with ease......steffi was twice the mover that evert ever was......

[thrust]

Originally Posted by Start da Game

steffi did handle peak navratilova with ease......steffi was twice the mover that evert ever was......

Steffi did NOT handle peak Nav with ease! Their overal H-H is 9-9, with a past 30 Nav winning several matches. Some of the matches Steffi won were very close as was a match against Evert in Boca Raton when Chris was well past 30. Chis was sneaky fast as she had great anticipation and balance. She would move Steffi side to side, forward and back with great lobs and passing shots. Court, Evert, Nav, Serena and Graf were equally great-IMO!

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by doujyr

#facepalm. i can't recall anyone from the 70's using it. so i say again read the question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Lfi-4ly5I
What don't you understand in the sentence: "everyone uses it"? Took a random match from the 70's and saw it a few times, Granted Maria uses it more often than most ppl, but on the run, all players use it sometimes.

[doujyr]

pmsl saying everyone does it is no answer to the question was player x the first to do so. if i asked who was the first person to ride a bike saying everyone does it is not an answer. but never mind, you carry on.

[dsanders06]

Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit

One point I'd like to make to counter your argument my fellow Rafa fan (I hope he wins today btw..)-

The technology argument is easy to overcome. The same technology that Serena has available is the same that Dementieva, Hingis, Azarenka, Sharapova- and every other woman playing tennis has available to them. If it was simply a matter of putting the right technology in your hands then everyone would be able to serve like Serena. So it can't be as simply as that.

Even if Serena was limited with technology her perfect toss, disguise on the serve, and placement would make it a weapon in any era. It's just like when they credit our Rafa's ability to generate and use so much spin on his forehand. They want to give 100% of the credit to the technology but fail to comment that the same technology exist for everyone so why don't the others incorporate spin to the degree that he does. (And to be honest our beloved Rafa benefits more from technology advances than Serena does IMO).

I agree with you that racquet technology is a red herring (mainly because, contrary to popular belief, racquet technology has evolved very little since Graf's day, and the main changes have only related to being able to use more topspin and thus doesn't apply much to the WTA anyway), and also that Serena's serve is due not just to 'muscling' it but it is technically excellent. If they competed in the same era, with the same racquets, Serena would certainly have the better serve.


With that said -- let's be honest here, by popular consent, Serena's serving last year at Wimbledon was the best serving she'd ever produced in her career (or 2nd-best behind the Olympics), and yet inspite of that she was almost beaten numerous times. Was there ever really a match where Graf's forehand was at it's absolute peak, that she almost lost?

And I think people sometimes underestimate the fact that you can only rely on a great serve in half your games, while you can rely on a great groundstroke in every game.

[kiwifan]

When Serena is on and killing, she has a cross court return of serve that doesn't just win her the point; it puts the opponent in a place where they have to go for too much and end up committing plenty of double faults. That is my favorite shot, all time.

I will default for Serena's serve only because as a Seles lover, I've seen her answer to Steffi's forehand...check mate!

Serena's serve is currently making the best in the game, smile shrug and just hope they can guess right.

[Start da Game]

Originally Posted by thrust

Steffi did NOT handle peak Nav with ease! Their overal H-H is 9-9, with a past 30 Nav winning several matches. Some of the matches Steffi won were very close as was a match against Evert in Boca Raton when Chris was well past 30. Chis was sneaky fast as she had great anticipation and balance. She would move Steffi side to side, forward and back with great lobs and passing shots. Court, Evert, Nav, Serena and Graf were equally great-IMO!

graf peaked in 1988 to be really honest......navratilova who was still going strong was defeated final after final in wimbledon and some hardcourt slams from 1988 onwards......agreed she might have not been at her absolute best but certainly did not have any answers to peak graff......the battles were not even close......

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

I agree with you that racquet technology is a red herring (mainly because, contrary to popular belief, racquet technology has evolved very little since Graf's day, and the main changes have only related to being able to use more topspin and thus doesn't apply much to the WTA anyway), and also that Serena's serve is due not just to 'muscling' it but it is technically excellent. If they competed in the same era, with the same racquets, Serena would certainly have the better serve.


With that said -- let's be honest here, by popular consent, Serena's serving last year at Wimbledon was the best serving she'd ever produced in her career (or 2nd-best behind the Olympics), and yet inspite of that she was almost beaten numerous times. Was there ever really a match where Graf's forehand was at it's absolute peak, that she almost lost?

And I think people sometimes underestimate the fact that you can only rely on a great serve in half your games, while you can rely on a great groundstroke in every game.

I personally think that Serena's '10 run is a better example of how dominating Serena's serve really is and can be. Last year she hit more aces, but '10 she only was losing serve like every three matches or something.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by doujyr

pmsl saying everyone does it is no answer to the question was player x the first to do so. if i asked who was the first person to ride a bike saying everyone does it is not an answer. but never mind, you carry on.

Well is Maria Sharapova the first tennis player ever? No, then no she's not the first player to do it

[Lilowannabe]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

I agree with you that racquet technology is a red herring (mainly because, contrary to popular belief, racquet technology has evolved very little since Graf's day, and the main changes have only related to being able to use more topspin and thus doesn't apply much to the WTA anyway), and also that Serena's serve is due not just to 'muscling' it but it is technically excellent. If they competed in the same era, with the same racquets, Serena would certainly have the better serve.


With that said -- let's be honest here, by popular consent, Serena's serving last year at Wimbledon was the best serving she'd ever produced in her career (or 2nd-best behind the Olympics), and yet inspite of that she was almost beaten numerous times. Was there ever really a match where Graf's forehand was at it's absolute peak, that she almost lost?

And I think people sometimes underestimate the fact that you can only rely on a great serve in half your games, while you can rely on a great groundstroke in every game.

Fantastic point raised there, but that's where comparing the greatest serve of all time to the greatest groundstroke becomes redundant. I actually think Wimbledon 12 as an example, favours Serena's argument as the greatest shot... she essentially won a slam, playing horribly off the ground and moving poorly most the tournament, and yet got past opponents playing far better simply by serving outstandingly.

TBH I cant really pick between the graf forehand or serena serve...

[longtin23]

Did someone said Rotterdam has a great crowd!? Can someone turn.on.tv to show how great it is!?

[The Dawntreader]

I personally found Henin's driven BH absolutely fug, and it's not like Graf's stroke production on the FH was seamless and aesthetically pleasing. She hit it late with a fugly follow-through. The beauty of Graf's shot was the athleticism and elevation she used to get off that shot, not the shot in its fundamental state.

I'm surprised Davenport's Backhand wasn't included. One of the most gorgeous, fluent shots in tennis.

[Start da Game]

davenport has a great backhand but it comes only after seles somewhere down the list......if it can't even top the list of double handed backhands, how can it compete with all other shots? so that backhand would be irrelevant in this thread.......earlier someone asked why henin's forehand which is better than her backhand was not included......same reason for that as well......what good would her forehand be in front of graf's or serena's?

[barmaid]

How many 'sneaky' dropshots has Martina Hingis executed? Priceless to see the expression on an opponents face..gotta rate hers as the "best" ever!

Barmaid

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

I agree with you that racquet technology is a red herring (mainly because, contrary to popular belief, racquet technology has evolved very little since Graf's day, and the main changes have only related to being able to use more topspin and thus doesn't apply much to the WTA anyway), and also that Serena's serve is due not just to 'muscling' it but it is technically excellent. If they competed in the same era, with the same racquets, Serena would certainly have the better serve.


With that said -- let's be honest here, by popular consent, Serena's serving last year at Wimbledon was the best serving she'd ever produced in her career (or 2nd-best behind the Olympics), and yet inspite of that she was almost beaten numerous times. Was there ever really a match where Graf's forehand was at it's absolute peak, that she almost lost?

And I think people sometimes underestimate the fact that you can only rely on a great serve in half your games, while you can rely on a great groundstroke in every game.

I agree with this post entirely, in fact, all the other players in this list also had a great game to go with that weapon, as opposed to Serena.