[Brad[le]y.]

Originally Posted by ivanban

That doesn't make sense at all. If you're receiving slow balls, don't you have more time to put yourself in the right position and smack the ball back?!

Not true at all, it's very easy to miss-hit shots at a pace you're not used to; even club level players will be able to tell you that.

[overrule]

Originally Posted by NashaMasha

Pushers win over agressive players is more a mental win , they put players under pressure using their defense and just force them mentally collapse and go for too much instead of playing their game , which still can be enough to beat this pusher....

It's not what we want to see in sport. We don't want Usian Bolt's rivals to try to force him make a false start or F1 driver provoke car crashes . Pushers are provoking other player play ugly , that's why their matches are rarely of high quality and the matches between 2 pushers are a total crap which should not be broadcasted at all , only on private channells for perverts

This is way oversimplified. Although the mental collapse is part of it, a lot of these players can't beat "pushers" by just playing their game. Often, they go for too much because they know anything less will not be enough to win the point. If they can't keep the ball in play, they don't deserve to win.

You've conflated pushers with those who play mind games or cheat. The analogy to a sprint or car race makes no sense. Tennis is more a combination of boxing, chess, and a marathon.

[+Y-T]

Originally Posted by overrule

Is an error "unforced" if it happens on the 20th shot of a rally? I would call that a forced error because the opponent made the player hit 19 shots prior to the miss.

I don't really care for the terms unforced error or winner. How can a player have only 5 winners when she won 65 points during the match? How were the errors unforced when the player was forced to hit the extra ball?

I would like to see a breakdown of how the players' points were won during a match. For example:

Total points won: 100
Balls hit out: 25
Balls hit into net: 50
Balls unreturned*: 25

* Balls unreturned includes clean winners as well as those points in which the ball never reached the net or crossed the net.

This type of box score eliminates the subjectivity of official scorers and gives a nice broad overview of how the points were won. I'd also like to see "total balls put in play" and "average rally length."

Originally Posted by Start da Game

concurred......unforced error is very subjective......what may seem unforced is quite often forced by the opponent......

[quote]

Originally Posted by bobito

A very good point.

The terms "unforced error" and "forced error" are greatly overused to be honest. Consider the following scenarios:

• Player has plenty of time and hits an easy ball into the net or out of the court
• Player hits the 20th shot of a rally into the net
• Player is in position to play the ball but mistimes it due to opponent's cleverly disguised change of pace
• Player is wrong-footed and, though close enough to hit the ball, cannot get her feet in position to play the shot properly
• Player is running from one side of the court to the other and, though able to reach the ball, has to play it on the run
• Opponent (a good volleyer) is at the net and the player hits a passing shot wide (or a lob long)
• Player chases down a ball but is only able to get the frame of her racquet on it

Only the first one is really an unforced error. The last, which would be called a forced error, is not really an error at all since the player could not reasonably have been expected to do better. In all of the other cases the opponent has a large part to play in the player missing and it would be a subjective judgement to call them forced or unforced errors.

It's frankly nonsense to be quoting unforced errors as a statistic.

That's what I'm really starting to take notice of. Is the person counting the W-UE ratio, the same person everytime? How do they do it? What do they look for to differentiate a FE from an UE? It's the FEs that never get shown on TV so the casual viewer is left to think that one player is 'pushing' and the other player is 'bbb'ing... which isn't fair.

Has there been an interview with a person who does this? Would like to see. Sometimes the numbers on the page tell a different story than when you watch the match. I've noticed this quite a bit.

It may all come down to how the person administering the stats live interprets the points.

[ivanban]

Originally Posted by Brad[le]y.

Not true at all, it's very easy to miss-hit shots at a pace you're not used to; even club level players will be able to tell you that.

That works only one way - if you're not used to fast balls

[Dominic]

In a short answer, I would have a tendancy to say yes

[Third Mall]

Originally Posted by Dominic

In a short answer, I would have a tendancy to say yes

Reason?

[doujyr]

Originally Posted by koyak

Read this: http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=470319

and don't come back

i did. and i'm back. maybe you'll grow up one day and realise there's more than one way to view the world, and tolerate other people's views.

btw i got a lot of positive feedback for my post on that thread. i'm pleased this thread exists as the attempted bullying of those who dislike pushers on here by the Polish radwanska fangirls is pathetic.

maybe it's an age thing. you're clearly quite young and immature and have never seen fast court tennis. sadly maybe you never will, and the borefests like radwanska vs errani are going to become the norm

[doujyr]

Originally Posted by Monzanator

At least women don't serve 30 aces per match to make it more interesting.

hradecka in Quebec last year was pretty close

Originally Posted by Monzanator

But I can watch Sharapova, Kvitova and Azarenka try to out-hit each other all day long and won't complain about the lack of variety but a similar match between Wozniacki, Jankovic or another random counterpuncher is just a turn off for me.

(though not sure about including azarenka in there )