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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 01:46 AM   #1
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Are pushers bad for tennis?

(I'm not going to win any fans with this thread but this isn't being posted to antagonise anyone. I'm posting this out of genuine curiosity. Also, this issue may have been taken up before in several threads. I'm new here, so close or delete this by all means if it isn't a valid thread. Leave the though, please.)

Ok, very simple question. I'm just wondering because whenever a "pusher" is beaten this forum in general perceives it as a "win" for tennis. Is it really only hitting winners (and many UEs too) that is considered to be proper tennis?

The majority of this forum sees the pusher as "undeserving" of whatever they achieve, and deserving of whatever they don't. To those people: Is it because you find it boring? If it is then I suggest you find a new sport. How can any achievement in a professional sport be "fake" or undeserved, unless it is done by cheating? The rules of tennis accommodate for defence as well as attack, don't they? I suppose Evander Holyfield was a disgrace to boxing for being a counter puncher. In no other sport is there seemingly such universal hate for a style of play.

I just want to know the reasoning behind the hate of "pushers" on this forum, so please respond if you have anything meaningful to say. Thanks.

Last edited by Third Mall : Jan 22nd, 2013 at 01:30 PM.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 01:52 AM   #2
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Re: What is tennis?

This is an important question that not enough people ask. Basically it's a game where you hit a fuzzy yellow ball around with a racket. There are these little squares on the ground and if you hit the ball into the squares and the other person can't hit it back you win a point. Sometimes people make funny/sexy noises when they play because that makes it more fun. It's a pretty cool game.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 01:57 AM   #3
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Re: What is tennis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Mall View Post
(I'm not going to win any fans with this thread but this isn't being posted to antagonise anyone. I'm posting this out of genuine curiosity. Also, this issue may have been taken up before in several threads. I'm new here, so close or delete this by all means if it isn't a valid thread. Leave the though, please.)

Ok, very simple question. I'm just wondering because whenever a "pusher" is beaten this forum in general perceives it as a "win" for tennis. Is it really only hitting winners (and many UEs too) that is considered to be proper tennis?

The majority of this forum sees the pusher as "undeserving" of whatever they achieve, and deserving of whatever they don't. To those people: Is it because you find it boring? If it is then I suggest you find a new sport. How can any achievement in a professional sport be "fake" or undeserved, unless it is done by cheating? The rules of tennis accommodate for defence as well as attack, don't they? I suppose Evander Holyfield was a disgrace to boxing for being a counter puncher. In no other sport is there seemingly such universal hate for a style of play.

I just want to know the reasoning behind the hate of "pushers" on this forum, so please respond if you have anything meaningful to say. Thanks.
Positive tennis celebrates human perfection and technical mastery. Negative tennis preys on human weakness.

The problem with negative tennis is that it mainly wins by default.

Notice that I make the distinction between positive/negative vs aggressive/defensive. It is possible to play positive tennis as a defensive player. Usually such players are called counter-punchers.

And this is before going into aesthetics.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 01:57 AM   #4
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Re: What is tennis?

It is defense as well as attack but some players take defense way way too far to the point where it looks like there lobbing every ball (aka Wozniacki) and it just looks silly and bad for the game, you may say 'thats tactical' or a 'mental strategy' but physically no one likes it and it's not enjoyable to watch and thats why people dislike the pushing technique. A nice defense game is '08 Jankovic or even Radwanska, that is defense.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:02 AM   #5
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Re: What is tennis?

pushers are disgusting, they are basically vultures living off the unforced errors from opponents who are actually trying to hit something other than a safe-middle-of-the-court shot - I mean, who the hell wants to pay to watch that sort of shot?
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:04 AM   #6
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Re: What is tennis?

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Positive tennis celebrates human perfection and technical mastery. Negative tennis preys on human weakness.

The problem with negative tennis is that it mainly wins by default.

Notice that I make the distinction between positive/negative vs aggressive/defensive. It is possible to play positive tennis as a defensive player. Usually such players are called counter-punchers.

And this is before going into aesthetics.

Point taken, and I do get that it's preying on weaknesses. But it also lacks alot of those weaknesses. Surely that is something to be appreciated?

I also get that it's less enjoyable, but a sport isn't played by the competitors with entertainment in the forefront of their minds.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:06 AM   #7
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Re: What is tennis?

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Point taken, and I do get that it's preying on weaknesses. But it also lacks alot of those weaknesses. Surely that is something to be appreciated?

I also get that it's less enjoyable, but a sport isn't played by the competitors with entertainment in the forefront of their minds.
It lacks weaknesses because it is afraid of the risk that comes with exhibiting strengths.
I don't think that is to be appreciated. At best that bit is neutral.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:09 AM   #8
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Re: What is tennis?

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It lacks weaknesses because it is afraid of the risk that comes with exhibiting strengths.
I don't think that is to be appreciated. At best that bit is neutral.
The risk often isn't worth taking. That's smart. Sometimes you have to play the hand you're dealt too. Some players physically can't take risks. That isn't their fault. Once again, making success out of that should be appreciated.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:10 AM   #9
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Re: What is tennis?

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The risk often isn't worth taking. That's smart. Sometimes you have to play the hand you're dealt too. Some players physically can't take risks. That isn't their fault. Once again, making success out of that should be appreciated.
Well, I agree with that, although I think it is ultimately a technical issue.
I mean, clearly everyone is trying to play the best strategy that works for their physical and technical abilities.
But you also hope that players evolve better technical abilities with time, and change their strategy accordingly so that their tennis improves.

Look at Henin.

Now look at Wozniacki, even Radwanska.
The problem with negative tennis is that it is static and unchanging instead of dynamic.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:21 AM   #10
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Re: What is tennis?

Tennis is about hitting the ball over the net and keeping it between the lines. Everything else is all opinion and whatever people will say to make their favs look good and their non-favs look bad.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:23 AM   #11
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Re: What is tennis?

Tennis is a game wherein a ball is hit within certain lines, as described earlier. Failure to hit the ball within those lines results in a point for your opponent. WHY that person failed to hit the ball in is irrelevant. There are two ways of making that happen: hitting a ball such that it is unreturnable due to speed, spin, and/or spot (placement)OR hitting every ball back until the other person fails to do so. There are NO EXTRA points granted for hitting screaming winners or technically flawless strokes. Anyone with common sense would take a mis-hit winner over a well struck returned ball any day. So mostly the complaints about "pushers" is about esthetics. Many feel that well constructed points ending in fabulous clean winners is much more exciting than points won by opponent's unforced errors, and is, therefore, "good for the game".
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:25 AM   #12
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Re: What is tennis?

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Tennis is a game wherein a ball is hit within certain lines, as described earlier. Failure to hit the ball within those lines results in a point for your opponent. WHY that person failed to hit the ball in is irrelevant. There are two ways of making that happen: hitting a ball such that it is unreturnable due to speed, spin, and/or spot (placement)OR hitting every ball back until the other person fails to do so. There are NO EXTRA points granted for hitting screaming winners or technically flawless strokes. Anyone with common sense would take a mis-hit winner over a well struck returned ball any day. So mostly the complaints about "pushers" is about esthetics. Many feel that well constructed points ending in fabulous clean winners is much more exciting than points won by opponent's unforced errors, and is, therefore, "good for the game".
Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and maybe he won't catch a fish some days, but he will eat forever.

This is why technique is paramount.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:28 AM   #13
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Re: What is tennis?

It just comes down to opinions. I mean, generally when a 'pusher' wins it is because their opponent goes out and loses. That's what they rely on. It's definitely a skill. But I can personally say that I prefer to watch players go out and 'win' their matches rather than relying on their opponents 'losing them.' You know those awful quality matches where the BBB ends up losing to the pusher with 10000 unforced errors, the pusher wins, does tennis win? I'm not really sure.

But the saying 'tennis wins' just comes down to opinions I think. I mean, a Radwanska fan could say 'tennis wins' whenever she wins a match and a ballbasher loses. The opposite is also the same.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:35 AM   #14
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Re: What is tennis?

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Well, I agree with that, although I think it is ultimately a technical issue.
I mean, clearly everyone is trying to play the best strategy that works for their physical and technical abilities.
But you also hope that players evolve better technical abilities with time, and change their strategy accordingly so that their tennis improves.

Look at Henin.

Now look at Wozniacki, even Radwanska.
The problem with negative tennis is that it is static and unchanging instead of dynamic.
See, I can bet my bottom dollar that Radwanska would read a situation in a match alot better than Lisicki or Goerges would, and adapt as much as she can to suit. Even if the opponent had lost their racquet, Goerges would probably still go for the lines instead of putting it safely in play.

My problem is not with criticising a pusher for losing, but for criticising them even when they are winning. Wozniacki and Radwanska are both GS finalists and have been in the top 2. Would they have done that if they took risks? I doubt it. They've achieved alot more than the vast majority of positive players out there.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 02:37 AM   #15
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Re: What is tennis?

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It just comes down to opinions. I mean, generally when a 'pusher' wins it is because their opponent goes out and loses. That's what they rely on. It's definitely a skill. But I can personally say that I prefer to watch players go out and 'win' their matches rather than relying on their opponents 'losing them.' You know those awful quality matches where the BBB ends up losing to the pusher with 10000 unforced errors, the pusher wins, does tennis win? I'm not really sure.

But the saying 'tennis wins' just comes down to opinions I think. I mean, a Radwanska fan could say 'tennis wins' whenever she wins a match and a ballbasher loses. The opposite is also the same.
I would hope a Radwanska fan would have more sense than saying something so stupid.
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