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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 03:31 AM   #46
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Re: Belfast riots

Again the fundemental priority is to reconcile the Northern Irish Nationalist community with their Unionist neighbours. I assume that whatever the circumstances everyone will admit this is going to be essential for the future of Ireland. How can those in Northern Ireland who define themselves as British more feverently than mainland Brits would, be happy one day to be part of a new united Ireland?
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 04:22 AM   #47
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Re: Belfast riots

Well I do know that apparently they're for putting the city to a stand still on Friday. Apparently it will be the biggest protest yet.
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 11:30 PM   #48
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
Bloody Sunday was a shameful event, but it can't be detached from other shameful events on all sides. Simply I say if there is to be truth and blame for the wider conflict let it be spread around. The IRA must accept it share of the blame.

Yes JR is baiting me, but blame him for that, take it up with him. All his John Bull crap.

My position is moderate...to spell it out...

I want a united Ireland as soon as possible, providing it can be achieved in a peaceful way.

I accept that previous British governments should shoulder significant blame for the mess of Northern Ireland.

I loathe the Loyalist rioters, I strongly dislike the Orangemen, hate Paisley and his bigoted movement.

But I have at least as much contempt for the IRA. Who were cold blooded callous murderers, who sometimes packed their bombs with nails for extra effect, who planted bombs and killed countless innocents.
I'm not really blaming anyone for the baiting or taking it up with anyone. I'm just wondering if, perhaps, in your effort to counterbalance his posts (and possibly the posts of others) that your own posts are becoming a little unbalanced (for the record, I'm not claiming that my own posts are balanced) You express your opposition to certain loyalist, unionists, and now the orangemen in your posts but you never go into quite as much detail about them as you do about the IRA and nationalists. You also mentioned the imbalance in the media early on in this thread and I wonder if you have always been as aware of the violence perpetrated by unionist paramilitaries.

As for the events like Bloody Sunday, the Miami Showband Massacre and others in which the British government or civic bodies colluded in, I think they should be viewed differently. Terrorism which has been enabled and/or assisted by a government must be one of the worst crimes imaginable. I think these acts should be set apart from and are worse than other terrorist acts. On the issue of compensation, I'm not really sure what I think. I'm glad that some have refused to accept it or have donated it to charity. I'm glad that that man forgave the soldier who blinded him. He provided a shining example to not only everyone in Ireland and Britain but to people all over the world. I'm no longer Catholic but if there's one thing I'll always remember about the religious education I received, it's the emphasis placed on forgiveness. Forgiveness is a great thing. It's a powerful thing.

I've been a bit irked by some of Peter Robinson's remarks this week. I gave him the benefit of the doubt but he keeps saying how the behaviour of the rioters is republican behaviour, not loyalist behaviour. It's like he's actually trying to exacerbate the situation on both sides of the divide!
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #49
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Re: Belfast riots

Peter Robinson is a disgrace, his constituents booted him out of his Westminster seat, he shouldn't even be relevant. And lets not talk about Iris

On Vincent Browne last night that Northern woman from the National Women's Council (normally irritates me) was on to discuss the X Case but at the end they did a minor bit on the riots and she stated before the vote was taken many mainstream unionists like DUP politicians were distributing pamphlets saying "Fight to stop Alliance tear down our flag". Reminds me of the Sarah Palin crosshairs picture.
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 11:41 PM   #50
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post

Regarding Korea, they were unnaturally divided in the 50s just like Ireland was in the 20s so yes add 30 years and two massively different ideologies and yes its different to Ireland but thats about it.
Their reunification is probably even further off/even more unlikely to ever succeed than ours. Yes, foreign powers played their part before, during and after the war but the situation is quite different and has played out much differently. There are similarities but they don't run all that deep as both the situation in Ireland and in Korea are extremely complex.

I must agree with what Vikeymise (sp?) said about republicanism in Ireland. It might be big in border counties and among the working class but Irish people are about as Republican as they are Catholic - You were completely right when you said we were half-arsed and apathetic. We're lazily apolitical. It's tragic. It's not good enough but after centuries of foreign rule, disjointed uprisings, civil war and one disappointment of a government after another it seems as though that'll never change. We would need an actual inspirational leader to get behind but they are all long dead. We need a true statesperson. Someone we can rely on and trust in fully.

I wish Mary Robinson had somehow become Taoiseach...as an independent! She's someone I trust to do the right thing. She's a stateswoman. Maybe presidents seem this way because they don't actually have to run the country but damn, we need Mary!
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 11:47 PM   #51
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Re: Belfast riots

THE WORKERS' PARTY OF IRELAND
Flags debacle pitiful says Lowry


Poverty and inequality ignored while politicians squabble about flags and emblems

The Workers’ Party has described last night’s violent scenes outside Belfast City Hall and the intemperate outbursts in the council chamber on the issue of which flags should be flown from the building as obscene

“The pitiful sight of thousands of people protesting outside Belfast City Hall about flags is matched only by a chamber full of councillors debating it inside”, Workers Party Belfast Chairman John Lowry has said.

“The real questions that must be asked about this tribal debacle are the ones that Sinn Fein and DUP voters in particular must ask of themselves”

“While jobs are being lost, prices rising, homes being re-possessed, child poverty increasing and thousands of people across the city facing a daily 'eat or heat' dilemma, Councillors in Belfast are using flags and emblems as a smokescreen for their failure to even address these issues”.

“Sinn Fein and DUP supporters must now ask themselves: Do I really want to vote for a party that is happy to ignore social and economic realities to secure their own tribal positions”, concluded Mr Lowry.

Issued 4th December 2012
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #52
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Re: Belfast riots

An inspirational leader will never work their way through the party system that exists. No way can anyone rise up in FG or FF and be inspirational, it just doesn't happen. The big inspirational/big leaders tend to happen in Presidential systems (modern day South America for example) because it requires One person to win One election, not so much arse licking like in the Irish party system.

Kenny is only the leader of FG and Taoiseach because he is in the Dail for so long (since 1975), a good example of perseverance eventually getting you to the top.

The Catholic analogy does work on some hand because ok people aren't practicing Catholics but it could be argued they're defiantly culturally Catholic. Having worked with both Spaniards and Germans I always felt I had more in common with the Spaniards even though we never went to mass so there must be some Catholic culture in existence that is there regardless of Church attendance.

I see Ireland as being "Culturally Catholic and Spiritually Agnostic". Can't remember who coined that phrase but someone did I think I know Gael Garcia Bernal uses it

So Irish people are kinda republican, they just don't make it into a big deal nowadays. Look at the whole Ireland's Call thing, most people don't like that song, I mean when I lived in NZ and went to an NZ/Ireland rugby match I pointed out to the Canadians, Brits and Americans with me that the song being played was most certainly NOT the national anthem. Of course they asked why not play the national anthem. Well that was a long conversation then When people are pushed they do exhibit more republican tendencies that they never knew was inside them.
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Old Jan 10th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #53
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwilliams View Post
I'm not really blaming anyone for the baiting or taking it up with anyone. I'm just wondering if, perhaps, in your effort to counterbalance his posts (and possibly the posts of others) that your own posts are becoming a little unbalanced (for the record, I'm not claiming that my own posts are balanced) You express your opposition to certain loyalist, unionists, and now the orangemen in your posts but you never go into quite as much detail about them as you do about the IRA and nationalists. You also mentioned the imbalance in the media early on in this thread and I wonder if you have always been as aware of the violence perpetrated by unionist paramilitaries.

As for the events like Bloody Sunday, the Miami Showband Massacre and others in which the British government or civic bodies colluded in, I think they should be viewed differently. Terrorism which has been enabled and/or assisted by a government must be one of the worst crimes imaginable. I think these acts should be set apart from and are worse than other terrorist acts. On the issue of compensation, I'm not really sure what I think. I'm glad that some have refused to accept it or have donated it to charity. I'm glad that that man forgave the soldier who blinded him. He provided a shining example to not only everyone in Ireland and Britain but to people all over the world. I'm no longer Catholic but if there's one thing I'll always remember about the religious education I received, it's the emphasis placed on forgiveness. Forgiveness is a great thing. It's a powerful thing.

I've been a bit irked by some of Peter Robinson's remarks this week. I gave him the benefit of the doubt but he keeps saying how the behaviour of the rioters is republican behaviour, not loyalist behaviour. It's like he's actually trying to exacerbate the situation on both sides of the divide!
I have been far clearer in my condemnation of Protestant terrorists and indeed the actions of the British governments in years gone by, than some in this thread have ever been about the IRA.

I think it's very strange to compare terrorist atrocities and decide neatly oh this is far worse than that...

The IRA planted bombs in public parks, pubs, shopping centres, parked cars...they treated petty criminals in their own community in a fascist way, kneecapping those that defied them. Sometimes they packed bombs with nails so they would be that bit much more effective in their dealing of death and disfigurement.

It's grotesque that the British government were involved in such atrocities on the other side. But what the IRA did is grotesque too.

I condemn all murders perpetrated by Repubkican terrorists, Loyalist terrorists, the security forces and the British army.

I do not challenge the condemnation of what the British side have done wrong. I challenge the downplaying and soft peddling of the true nature of the IRA.
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Old Jan 10th, 2013, 05:58 AM   #54
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Re: Belfast riots

Again, looking at the present and the future, does anyone have ideas how they will reconcile Northern Irish Unionists to a united Ireland. Whatever the scenario that is going to have to happen if there is to be a successful united Ireland which most of us here want, albeit for varying reasons.

Ideas?
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Old Jan 10th, 2013, 11:51 AM   #55
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

I have been far clearer in my condemnation of Protestant terrorists and indeed the actions of the British governments in years gone by, than some in this thread have ever been about the IRA.

I think it's very strange to compare terrorist atrocities and decide neatly oh this is far worse than that...

The IRA planted bombs in public parks, pubs, shopping centres, parked cars...they treated petty criminals in their own community in a fascist way, kneecapping those that defied them. Sometimes they packed bombs with nails so they would be that bit much more effective in their dealing of death and disfigurement.

It's grotesque that the British government were involved in such atrocities on the other side. But what the IRA did is grotesque too.

I condemn all murders perpetrated by Repubkican terrorists, Loyalist terrorists, the security forces and the British army.

I do not challenge the condemnation of what the British side have done wrong. I challenge the downplaying and soft peddling of the true nature of the IRA.
I 4-1 don't deny it, I justify it. (I've already explained how the Brits could have done after WWI what the US did with Guantanamo Bay, which even Castro never tried to invade). Again, those 2 nice ladies who won the 1976 Nobel PP (akin to the SDLP and UUP in Stormont) achieved nothing of much substance; as those 2 parties didn't either. BTW, the kneecapping "in their own community" was mostly of hard drug dealers, including IRA men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

Again, looking at the present and the future, does anyone have ideas how they will reconcile Northern Irish Unionists to a united Ireland. Whatever the scenario that is going to have to happen if there is to be a successful united Ireland which most of us here want, albeit for varying reasons.

Ideas?
Sure, though I still say its up to them (regardless of religion) not you or I. Which is a transitional period in terms of Dublin's domestic role, with day-to-day stuff left largely in county hands.

BTW Sir Winston ya nevva answered 2 points o' mine: the thing about leasing the ports ya wanted (after helping the Froggies rape the Jerries @ Versailles after WWI) ala the US and Gitmo (or Subic Bay in the Philippines for decades).

Also the "convenient exclusion" of 2 counties in ancient Ulster (Donegal and Cavan) from yer bastardized version. Maybe that's where the South African far right (like Eugene Terre' Blanche) got the idea for white-majority "homelands" after majority rule.
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Old Jan 10th, 2013, 12:20 PM   #56
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
I 4-1 don't deny it, I justify it. (I've already explained how the Brits could have done after WWI what the US did with Guantanamo Bay, which even Castro never tried to invade). Again, those 2 nice ladies who won the 1976 Nobel PP (akin to the SDLP and UUP in Stormont) achieved nothing of much substance; as those 2 parties didn't either. BTW, the kneecapping "in their own community" was mostly of hard drug dealers, including IRA men.



Sure, though I still say its up to them (regardless of religion) not you or I. Which is a transitional period in terms of Dublin's domestic role, with day-to-day stuff left largely in county hands.

BTW Sir Winston ya nevva answered 2 points o' mine: the thing about leasing the ports ya wanted (after helping the Froggies rape the Jerries @ Versailles after WWI) ala the US and Gitmo (or Subic Bay in the Philippines for decades).

Also the "convenient exclusion" of 2 counties in ancient Ulster (Donegal and Cavan) from yer bastardized version. Maybe that's where the South African far right (like Eugene Terre' Blanche) got the idea for white-majority "homelands" after majority rule.
Since Tony Blair came to power the British government has played a positive role in the search for peace...if the IRA has changed then so to has the British government. But you want to take away what is now a moderating restraining influence on the Unionists overnight. I can't imagine that the Irish government or any serious political party in Ireland now wants a unilateral disengagement by The British government. It's fanciful to think the Unionists in Northern Ireland would go along with such a plan.

The vast majority throughout the Island of Ireland support the current peace process, as do I. It's you who want to impose an outside idea on them.
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Old Jan 10th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #57
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Re: Belfast riots

(This is from the Socialist Party of Ireland, which is different than the Workers Party quoted a few posts above)

Flags controversy – a socialist view


Monday, 17 December 2012 09:00

....As if to mock the chic advertising campaigns, the dispute around the flying of the union flag at Belfast City Hall has demonstrated that this is a myth. It has demonstrated, once again, that the ‘peace process’ has failed – Northern Ireland remains deeply divided and sectarian tensions lurk beneath the surface. In particular, this dispute has highlighted the simmering discontent which exists in the Protestant community.

On Monday 3rd December, Belfast City Council voted to fly the union flag at City Hall only on designated days. The original motion – put forward by Sinn Féin and supported by the SDLP – called for it not be flown at all but was amended by the Alliance Party. All unionists on the council opposed the move. The controversy around the flag at City Hall was consciously pursued by Sinn Féin and the SDLP – they were not responding to a groundswell of pressure within the Catholic community for the flag to be removed. This was in part an attempt to bring divisive issues centre stage in order to distract from the right-wing austerity agenda which all the main parties are committed to – a tried and tested method of sectarian politicians on both sides.

Is it simply a coincidence that this issue was catapulted into the headlines in the wake of the Assembly Executive passing the Welfare Reform Bill? This was a draconian attack on both in and out-of-work benefits which will hit the most vulnerable in society the hardest – the Assembly’s most generalised attack on the working class to date. The nationalist parties, in particular, clearly felt under pressure on this issue and feigned opposition, voting against the bill in the Assembly although they did not use their veto to prevent its passing.

When the motion was put forward, the unionist parties were more than happy to follow the nationalists’ lead and responded in kind. They distributed around 40,000 leaflets in Protestant areas of Belfast in the run-up to the council meeting, calling on people to put pressure on the Alliance Party to keep the flag flying year-round. In part, this was an attempt to undermine the Alliance Party’s electoral development in Protestant areas. People were called onto the streets.
....

On the night of the vote, a crowd of up to 1,600 protested outside City Hall. Some broke through security lines and attempted to disrupt the meeting. Since then, we have witnessed a sustained wave of protests, roadblocks, rioting and intimidation across Northern Ireland on a scale not seen since the height of the Drumcree crisis. Loyalist paramilitaries have clearly played a central and sinister role.

The Alliance Party has been a focus of protests on the issue – they are seen as being ultimately responsible for the decision to remove the flag as they hold the balance of power on the council and could have prevented it. As well as peaceful pickets and protests, Alliance offices and members’ homes have been attacked. Death threats have been issued against politicians, including East Belfast MP Naomi Long as well as Sinn Fein, SDLP and DUP representatives....

The main parties have used this sensitive issue as a political football in an utterly reckless manner, which had heightened sectarian tensions and impacted upon the lives of ordinary people. While they don’t want the stability of the political structures to be undermined, the politicians will manipulate feelings on this issue in order to serve their narrow interests. Having let the genie out of the bottle, however, they will not so easily get it back in. The issue has now got beyond their control and taken on a life of its own....

Without a hint of irony, Sinn Féin representatives such as Gerry Kelly have called for a police clampdown, not just on rioting and violent behaviour but on peaceful protests. Meanwhile, the unionist parties – like Pontius Pilate – are attempting to wash their hands of any responsibility for the violence. They continue, however, to fan the flames of the dispute. A unionist ‘working group’ – involving the DUP, UUP, TUV and PUP – is to be established in order to develop a common campaigning strategy on the issue. The unionist politicians will use this body to try to control protest, turning the tap on and off at their convenience. This may prove more difficult than they think.

The strength of feeling on this issue in the Protestant community reflects a trend that the Socialist Party has long pointed towards. While the vast majority of Protestants want no return to the Troubles and oppose the recent violence, a feeling exists that the ‘peace process’ has been a long series of concessions to nationalism and that a steady erosion of the Protestant community’s cultural identity is under way, with the march of events leading – implicitly – in the direction of a capitalist united Ireland where they would become a disadvantaged minority. These frustrations are exacerbated by the triumphalist attitude of Sinn Féin and the armed campaigns of the ‘dissident’ republican groups.

This feeling of insecurity is reinforced by demographic changes reflected in the recent census figures – for the first time since the state’s foundation, Protestants are now in an overall minority (48%) while the Catholic community (now at 45%) continues to grow as a proportion of the population. The removal of the union flag from City Hall resonates deeply with these fears and frustrations.

There is also a perception that the Catholic community has materially benefited from the ‘peace process’ – in terms of jobs and services – at the expense or, at least, to the exclusion of the Protestant community, which has been rocked by the steady process of de-industrialisation. Often, this is expressed by disenchantment and anger towards the DUP and UUP who have ‘let the community down’ and ‘given in to Sinn Féin’. PUP leader Billy Hutchinson has been prominent in the protests and clearly hopes that posing as a more strident political force, more in touch with the Protestant working class will resurrect his party’s fortunes.

These sentiments cannot simply be dismissed, as some on the left seem to think. They have developed in the context of a political arrangement which has institutionalised sectarian division, not broken it down. The sectarian carve-up between the main parties in the Assembly Executive has been reflected in polarisation on the ground – a tendency towards greater segregation in housing, a war of attrition over territory in some areas, the creation of new interfaces and ‘peace’ lines and conflict over cultural issues.

The flying of flags is a hugely sensitive and potentially explosive issue. In the turf war between the communities which has been a feature of life across Northern Ireland to some degree during the period of the ‘peace process’, flags – along with murals, painted kerbstones and other symbols – have been used in both communities in order to mark divides between communities, claim territory and intimidate.

Flags have very different connotations to each community. To most Protestants, the union flag represents their British identity and positive values which are perceived to go along with it while, to Catholics, it represents British rule, the history of Unionist domination, discrimination and state repression. Similarly, to many Catholics, the Tricolour represents their Irish identity, freedom and resistance to oppression but, to Protestants, it is symbolic of the Provisional IRA and the years of the armed struggle and now the ‘dissident’ republicans, and represents a threat to their identity and security.

The flying of these and other flags is an expression of the sectarian division in our society. Simply curtailing the right to display them, however, would do nothing to decrease tension. In fact, the opposite is the case – where the state has attempted to forcefully remove flags, it has often provoked explosive reactions and tended to harden attitudes. Individuals and communities have the right to express their cultural identity, if they so choose. At the same time, people also have the right not to be intimidated.

Full article: http://socialistparty.net/component/...socialist-view
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Old Jan 11th, 2013, 07:31 AM   #58
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
(This is from the Socialist Party of Ireland, which is different than the Workers Party quoted a few posts above)

Flags controversy – a socialist view


Monday, 17 December 2012 09:00

....As if to mock the chic advertising campaigns, the dispute around the flying of the union flag at Belfast City Hall has demonstrated that this is a myth. It has demonstrated, once again, that the ‘peace process’ has failed – Northern Ireland remains deeply divided and sectarian tensions lurk beneath the surface. In particular, this dispute has highlighted the simmering discontent which exists in the Protestant community.

On Monday 3rd December, Belfast City Council voted to fly the union flag at City Hall only on designated days. The original motion – put forward by Sinn Féin and supported by the SDLP – called for it not be flown at all but was amended by the Alliance Party. All unionists on the council opposed the move. The controversy around the flag at City Hall was consciously pursued by Sinn Féin and the SDLP – they were not responding to a groundswell of pressure within the Catholic community for the flag to be removed. This was in part an attempt to bring divisive issues centre stage in order to distract from the right-wing austerity agenda which all the main parties are committed to – a tried and tested method of sectarian politicians on both sides.

Is it simply a coincidence that this issue was catapulted into the headlines in the wake of the Assembly Executive passing the Welfare Reform Bill? This was a draconian attack on both in and out-of-work benefits which will hit the most vulnerable in society the hardest – the Assembly’s most generalised attack on the working class to date. The nationalist parties, in particular, clearly felt under pressure on this issue and feigned opposition, voting against the bill in the Assembly although they did not use their veto to prevent its passing.

When the motion was put forward, the unionist parties were more than happy to follow the nationalists’ lead and responded in kind. They distributed around 40,000 leaflets in Protestant areas of Belfast in the run-up to the council meeting, calling on people to put pressure on the Alliance Party to keep the flag flying year-round. In part, this was an attempt to undermine the Alliance Party’s electoral development in Protestant areas. People were called onto the streets.
....

On the night of the vote, a crowd of up to 1,600 protested outside City Hall. Some broke through security lines and attempted to disrupt the meeting. Since then, we have witnessed a sustained wave of protests, roadblocks, rioting and intimidation across Northern Ireland on a scale not seen since the height of the Drumcree crisis. Loyalist paramilitaries have clearly played a central and sinister role.

The Alliance Party has been a focus of protests on the issue – they are seen as being ultimately responsible for the decision to remove the flag as they hold the balance of power on the council and could have prevented it. As well as peaceful pickets and protests, Alliance offices and members’ homes have been attacked. Death threats have been issued against politicians, including East Belfast MP Naomi Long as well as Sinn Fein, SDLP and DUP representatives....

The main parties have used this sensitive issue as a political football in an utterly reckless manner, which had heightened sectarian tensions and impacted upon the lives of ordinary people. While they don’t want the stability of the political structures to be undermined, the politicians will manipulate feelings on this issue in order to serve their narrow interests. Having let the genie out of the bottle, however, they will not so easily get it back in. The issue has now got beyond their control and taken on a life of its own....

Without a hint of irony, Sinn Féin representatives such as Gerry Kelly have called for a police clampdown, not just on rioting and violent behaviour but on peaceful protests. Meanwhile, the unionist parties – like Pontius Pilate – are attempting to wash their hands of any responsibility for the violence. They continue, however, to fan the flames of the dispute. A unionist ‘working group’ – involving the DUP, UUP, TUV and PUP – is to be established in order to develop a common campaigning strategy on the issue. The unionist politicians will use this body to try to control protest, turning the tap on and off at their convenience. This may prove more difficult than they think.

The strength of feeling on this issue in the Protestant community reflects a trend that the Socialist Party has long pointed towards. While the vast majority of Protestants want no return to the Troubles and oppose the recent violence, a feeling exists that the ‘peace process’ has been a long series of concessions to nationalism and that a steady erosion of the Protestant community’s cultural identity is under way, with the march of events leading – implicitly – in the direction of a capitalist united Ireland where they would become a disadvantaged minority. These frustrations are exacerbated by the triumphalist attitude of Sinn Féin and the armed campaigns of the ‘dissident’ republican groups.

This feeling of insecurity is reinforced by demographic changes reflected in the recent census figures – for the first time since the state’s foundation, Protestants are now in an overall minority (48%) while the Catholic community (now at 45%) continues to grow as a proportion of the population. The removal of the union flag from City Hall resonates deeply with these fears and frustrations.

There is also a perception that the Catholic community has materially benefited from the ‘peace process’ – in terms of jobs and services – at the expense or, at least, to the exclusion of the Protestant community, which has been rocked by the steady process of de-industrialisation. Often, this is expressed by disenchantment and anger towards the DUP and UUP who have ‘let the community down’ and ‘given in to Sinn Féin’. PUP leader Billy Hutchinson has been prominent in the protests and clearly hopes that posing as a more strident political force, more in touch with the Protestant working class will resurrect his party’s fortunes.

These sentiments cannot simply be dismissed, as some on the left seem to think. They have developed in the context of a political arrangement which has institutionalised sectarian division, not broken it down. The sectarian carve-up between the main parties in the Assembly Executive has been reflected in polarisation on the ground – a tendency towards greater segregation in housing, a war of attrition over territory in some areas, the creation of new interfaces and ‘peace’ lines and conflict over cultural issues.

The flying of flags is a hugely sensitive and potentially explosive issue. In the turf war between the communities which has been a feature of life across Northern Ireland to some degree during the period of the ‘peace process’, flags – along with murals, painted kerbstones and other symbols – have been used in both communities in order to mark divides between communities, claim territory and intimidate.

Flags have very different connotations to each community. To most Protestants, the union flag represents their British identity and positive values which are perceived to go along with it while, to Catholics, it represents British rule, the history of Unionist domination, discrimination and state repression. Similarly, to many Catholics, the Tricolour represents their Irish identity, freedom and resistance to oppression but, to Protestants, it is symbolic of the Provisional IRA and the years of the armed struggle and now the ‘dissident’ republicans, and represents a threat to their identity and security.

The flying of these and other flags is an expression of the sectarian division in our society. Simply curtailing the right to display them, however, would do nothing to decrease tension. In fact, the opposite is the case – where the state has attempted to forcefully remove flags, it has often provoked explosive reactions and tended to harden attitudes. Individuals and communities have the right to express their cultural identity, if they so choose. At the same time, people also have the right not to be intimidated.

Full article: http://socialistparty.net/component/...socialist-view
These various far left parties you quote are very much on the fringe and have very little influence for good or for ill. As I said all major parties in Ireland are Pro Peace process, progress that is going to be made has to go through that forum.

Grimly amusing again to read how divided the far left is...with numerous parties,camped out on the same ground fighting each other more than anything else. Again we are in "Judean People`s front" v "People`s front of Judea" territory.
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Old Jan 11th, 2013, 01:54 PM   #59
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

These various far left parties you quote are very much on the fringe and have very little influence for good or for ill. As I said all major parties in Ireland are Pro Peace process, progress that is going to be made has to go through that forum.

Grimly amusing again to read how divided the far left is...with numerous parties,camped out on the same ground fighting each other more than anything else. Again we are in "Judean People`s front" v "People`s front of Judea" territory.
I agree regarding the ridiculous amount of futile rivalry between far left parties (in the US, too). And I'm certainly for A Peace Process, so long as its a genuine one. Asian and African former colonies of GBR, FRA, BEL, and POR sought and got independence in the 20th century (and the Latin American ones from ESP in the 19th) not some agreement that included "a Stormont" in a carved-out Bantustan.

So first off let your Welfare Queen renounce her so-called sovereignty, or @ least declare that shared with the (also ceremonial) Irish President. And spare me the BS about the valuable role you say GBR plays reigning in the UDF, UVF, etc. As far as I'm concerned, every descendant of a colonialist can stay in Ireland if they like, with full political rights. But not with Fuckingham Palace as "Mommy and Daddy".


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Old Jan 11th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #60
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
I agree regarding the ridiculous amount of futile rivalry between far left parties (in the US, too). And I'm certainly for A Peace Process, so long as its a genuine one. Asian and African former colonies of GBR, FRA, BEL, and POR sought and got independence in the 20th century (and the Latin American ones from ESP in the 19th) not some agreement that included "a Stormont" in a carved-out Bantustan.

So first off let your Welfare Queen renounce her so-called sovereignty, or @ least declare that shared with the (also ceremonial) Irish President. And spare me the BS about the valuable role you say GBR plays reigning in the UDF, UVF, etc. As far as I'm concerned, every descendant of a colonialist can stay in Ireland if they like, with full political rights. But not with Fuckingham Palace as "Mommy and Daddy".


The main people the British government do have influence with today are mainstream Protestants like the DUP and UUP. That influence has been used for good throughout the peace process. Any other suggestion is a lie. The peace process would have died again and again without the British government, particularly of Tony Blair.

You treat the Protestants in Northern Ireland as a side issue, oh they can stay if they want to...but remember to them they are British and already living in the UK. That is the problem.

Basically you are way out there on the extremes, being not in favour of THE peace process, but A (fictional) peace process. The great mass of the people of Ireland dont agree with you.
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