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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 01:54 AM   #16
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Forget Sinn Fein, somebody shot @ the house of an SDLP Councillor:

SDLP councillor avoids injury as shots fired at family home

Monday, January 07, 2013

An SDLP councillor, her husband and infant daughter were lucky to avoid injury last night after seven shots were fired at their home.

By Noel Baker and Fiachra Ó Cionnaith

The Police Service of Northern Ireland has confirmed the incident involving East Belfast nationalist politician Claire Hanna took place yesterday amid ongoing violence over the non-flying of the Union flag at Belfast City Hall. Ms Hanna said the shots, which struck her front door and windows, were fired from a high-powered ball-bearing gun, and could have been fatal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...e-218817.html#

BTW, the 32 County Sovereignty Movement has 2B quite happy with the UDF - UVF idiots pissing off so many ppl.

Excerpt:

There is political violence in Ireland, not because a particular flag is flown at certain times, but because the wrong flag is flown at all. There is political violence in Ireland because the so called peace process failed to address this core issue of national sovereignty.

Restricting the flying of the Union flag in no way restricts what it represents; British claims to sovereignty over part of Ireland. That is what the Good Friday Agreement secured.

To resolve the conflict in Ireland we must address the question of sovereignty. This cannot happen in Stormont because the issue is beyond its remit.

The democratic deficit inherent in partition can only be rectified with the ending of partition. Hiding behind spurious votes to sanitise British occupation, and Free State indifference, merely perpetuates the conflict.

Agreement amongst the people of Ireland as to how we should govern ourselves is a matter for ourselves alone.

http://belfast32.blogspot.com

Quoting the political wing of the 'Real IRA' now? What is your position? Are you in favour of the peace process, like Sinn Fein? Are you against it but by peaceful means? Or are you siding with the Real IRA who want to tear down the peace process by murderous means? You can't be all at once.

Regarding your solution (British forces and government leave unilaterally then people of Ireland sort it out by negotiation or on the streets) is a doomed plan. It would as night follows day lead to civil war and huge terrorism in the Northern Ireland. Your willing to sacrifice the peace process for that? Do you think people in the Irish Republic want that?

I don't see any alternative to the peace process.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #17
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
Quoting the political wing of the 'Real IRA' now? What is your position? Are you in favour of the peace process, like Sinn Fein? Are you against is but by peaceful means? Or are you siding with the Real IRA who want to tear down the peace process by murderous means? You can't be all at once.

Regarding your solution (British forces and government leave unilaterally then people of Ireland sort it out by negotiation or on the streets) is a doomed plan. It would as night follows day lead to civil war and huge terrorism in the Northern Ireland. Your willing to sacrifice the peace process for that? Do you think even in the Irish Republic want that?

I don't say any alternative to the peace process.
We've already had that, oh sorry they were merely 'troubles'

Anyway it will be a while before anything is done one way or the other. The main problem I feel is that NI just has a severe lack of identity. The unionists as was mentioned have a view of what it means to be British as can only be describes as sick and twisted. And any time someone from England comments they tell them to fuck off and stick to their own country, despite claiming that their culture etc is the exact same as that country.

Then you have Republicans, I mean I myself consider myself Irish in every sense of the word, but I have the UK flag because I accept NI is part of the UK. Plus, the government down South is just a mess and there's no sign of anything changing soon. Nobody wants to buy into that. The economic recessions are cyclical down there. That's why I would prefer to remain in the UK at the minute. Although if there was to be a united Ireland that was actually run properly then I would go for it in a heartbeat.

Plus, I mean there are distinct social differences between Northerners and Southerners. Many Republicans and Nationalists up here have no idea what Southern Republicans even feel on the issues, in fact there's hostility between them a lot of the time.

NI is just no man's land really. Whatever happens it gonna' be messy either way.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #18
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Re: Belfast riots

It's true to say that there are major differences between a Cork person and a Dublin person. So the south isn't an homogenous cultural identity either. I agree some Southeners haven't a clue, one girl I know from Munster asked me who Bobby Sands was Coming from Louth and being up and down to Newry/South Armagh semi regularly I like to think of myself as somewhat more aware of NI than those not from border counties, but not an expert by any means.

Agree about need the system run properly I mean seriously FF/FG/labour are one big dysfunctional fucking mess. Although they think they're political geniuses.

The Belfast riot meme page on Facebook has been kinda funny with some loyalists telling republican posters to fuck off back to Dublin. Yes because the nationalists are the "planted" population
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 02:40 AM   #19
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Re: Belfast riots

I know, did you not see all the arguments about the currency too. Posts were going along the lines of 'using our great Queen's face every day, they can shut the fuck up and watch our flag fly'

Agree with whoever mentioned about the younger age groups as well. I'm part of the Newry Youth Forum and there's a couple of protestants members this year too. One of the protestant girls was up rioting as she just believes that that's the country and the flag should be flying. That's what's annoying, it's not about that. They're using some sort of patriotic BS facade to get the young ones in, only to promote what really is at the core - deep rooted bitterness. That's largely absent in my age group and nobody wants it present.

Although all that said, even though it's the Loyalists out rioting I suppose you have to appreciate that there's just as many other Loyalists laughing at the rioters this time round.

And also really get what you were saying about the Southern government and you're earlier mention about IMF, my Da's a real anicapitalist so we were following the whole IMF thing pretty closely. Ridiculous.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 02:51 AM   #20
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asherahpova View Post
We've already had that, oh sorry they were merely 'troubles'

Anyway it will be a while before anything is done one way or the other. The main problem I feel is that NI just has a severe lack of identity. The unionists as was mentioned have a view of what it means to be British as can only be describes as sick and twisted. And any time someone from England comments they tell them to fuck off and stick to their own country, despite claiming that their culture etc is the exact same as that country.

Then you have Republicans, I mean I myself consider myself Irish in every sense of the word, but I have the UK flag because I accept NI is part of the UK. Plus, the government down South is just a mess and there's no sign of anything changing soon. Nobody wants to buy into that. The economic recessions are cyclical down there. That's why I would prefer to remain in the UK at the minute. Although if there was to be a united Ireland that was actually run properly then I would go for it in a heartbeat.

Plus, I mean there are distinct social differences between Northerners and Southerners. Many Republicans and Nationalists up here have no idea what Southern Republicans even feel on the issues, in fact there's hostility between them a lot of the time.

NI is just no man's land really. Whatever happens it gonna' be messy either way.
An interesting and balanced insight. It's a complex mess, with disparities and disagreements throughout Ireland and the UK. It uses to be thought that being from the Catholic community in Northern Ireland for example automatically meant they would favour a united Ireland. It's not now the case if it ever was.

More generally the existing peace process is the only hope, it has to work and all those who want a peaceful solution must get wholeheartedly behind it.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 02:57 AM   #21
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Re: Belfast riots

Works both ways former RUC reserve and presbyterian Billy Leonard became a Sinn Fein MLA and wrote a book about striving towards a united Ireland.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 03:04 AM   #22
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Works both ways former RUC reserve and presbyterian Billy Leonard became a Sinn Fein MLA and wrote a book about striving towards a united Ireland.
Indeed there are Protestants in Northern Ireland in favour of a United Ireland. Yet opinion polls I've seen have shown its notably more common to be Catholic and wanting to remain part of the UK than it is to be Protestant there and want a united Ireland.

There are no ideal solutions. I favour a United Ireland, yet it has to be achieved in a manner that doesn't lead to civil war. The peace process is the only realistic mechanism for that.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 03:15 AM   #23
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asherahpova View Post

....Then you have Republicans, I mean I myself consider myself Irish in every sense of the word, but I have the UK flag because I accept NI is part of the UK. Plus, the government down South is just a mess and there's no sign of anything changing soon. Nobody wants to buy into that. The economic recessions are cyclical down there. That's why I would prefer to remain in the UK at the minute. Although if there was to be a united Ireland that was actually run properly then I would go for it in a heartbeat....
The point is that the Irish need to work it out for themselves. So if the Bloody Brits and their Welfare Queen in Buckminster Palace renounce sovereignty, Ireland's actual residents are perfectly free to work out whatever level of autonomy for different parts of the island they want. But for "John Bull" to even still have a Secretary of State for part of Ireland is an outrage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

Quoting the political wing of the 'Real IRA' now? What is your position? Are you in favour of the peace process, like Sinn Fein? Are you against it but by peaceful means? Or are you siding with the Real IRA who want to tear down the peace process by murderous means? You can't be all at once.

Regarding your solution (British forces and government leave unilaterally then people of Ireland sort it out by negotiation or on the streets) is a doomed plan. It would as night follows day lead to civil war and huge terrorism in the Northern Ireland. Your willing to sacrifice the peace process for that? Do you think people in the Irish Republic want that?

I don't see any alternative to the peace process.
I can quote anybody, that doesn't mean they control my views. Of course the RIRA and 32CSM must be happy 2C the police and paramilitaries fighting Protestant extremists. My favourite group there is the socialist remnant of the old Official IRA:

"In 1969, the IRA split into the 'Official' IRA and the 'Provisional' IRA. Both organisations opposed partition and refused to recognise the governments of either the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland.

"But whereas the Provisionals advocated violent confrontation, the Official IRA saw its role as purely defensive and pursued a policy of creating a socialist Ireland by largely policies means.

"The Official IRA has feuded with other Republican groups, but has not embarked on any other major armed campaigns. It is believed to still exist and is thought to be responsible for more than 50 deaths during the Troubles.

"At the same time as the Provisional IRA split from the Official IRA, its political wing, Provisional Sinn Fein, split from the Official Sinn Fein., which is now known as the Workers' Party of Ireland."

==============================

I do also "have a soft spot" for the far left (rather than sectarian) militants of the Irish National Liberation Army:

"The INLA was formed in 1974, following a split in the Official IRA over its 1972 ceasefire.

"Its peak of activity was in the 1970s and early 1980s, when it often operated in concert with other republican groups. Three of the 10 republican hunger strikers who died in 1981 were INLA members.

"The organisation first rose to prominence with the assassination of Conservative Northern Ireland spokesman Airey Neave at the House of Commons in 1979. In total, it is believed to have killed more than 120 people during the Troubles.

"Riven by splits and feuds, and widely associated with criminality such as armed robberies, the INLA almost fell apart during the mid- to late 1980s. One splinter group, the Irish People's Liberation Organisation, was attacked and disbanded by the Provisional IRA in 1992.

"In December 1997, the group killed leading loyalist paramilitary Billy Wright inside the Maze Prison, sparking a cycle of violent reprisals. It has a reputation, even among republican militants, of being extreme.

"In the wake of the 1998 Omagh bomb, the INLA called a ceasefire."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/...t_files.shtml?

A remake of the old Paul McCartney classic.

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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 04:15 AM   #24
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
The point is that the Irish need to work it out for themselves. So if the Bloody Brits and their Welfare Queen in Buckminster Palace renounce sovereignty, Ireland's actual residents are perfectly free to work out whatever level of autonomy for different parts of the island they want. But for "John Bull" to even still have a Secretary of State for part of Ireland is an outrage.



I can quote anybody, that doesn't mean they control my views. Of course the RIRA and 32CSM must be happy 2C the police and paramilitaries fighting Protestant extremists. My favourite group there is the socialist remnant of the old Official IRA:

"In 1969, the IRA split into the 'Official' IRA and the 'Provisional' IRA. Both organisations opposed partition and refused to recognise the governments of either the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland.

"But whereas the Provisionals advocated violent confrontation, the Official IRA saw its role as purely defensive and pursued a policy of creating a socialist Ireland by largely policies means.

"The Official IRA has feuded with other Republican groups, but has not embarked on any other major armed campaigns. It is believed to still exist and is thought to be responsible for more than 50 deaths during the Troubles.

"At the same time as the Provisional IRA split from the Official IRA, its political wing, Provisional Sinn Fein, split from the Official Sinn Fein., which is now known as the Workers' Party of Ireland."

==============================

I do also "have a soft spot" for the far left (rather than sectarian) militants of the Irish National Liberation Army:

"The INLA was formed in 1974, following a split in the Official IRA over its 1972 ceasefire.

"Its peak of activity was in the 1970s and early 1980s, when it often operated in concert with other republican groups. Three of the 10 republican hunger strikers who died in 1981 were INLA members.

"The organisation first rose to prominence with the assassination of Conservative Northern Ireland spokesman Airey Neave at the House of Commons in 1979. In total, it is believed to have killed more than 120 people during the Troubles.

"Riven by splits and feuds, and widely associated with criminality such as armed robberies, the INLA almost fell apart during the mid- to late 1980s. One splinter group, the Irish People's Liberation Organisation, was attacked and disbanded by the Provisional IRA in 1992.

"In December 1997, the group killed leading loyalist paramilitary Billy Wright inside the Maze Prison, sparking a cycle of violent reprisals. It has a reputation, even among republican militants, of being extreme.

"In the wake of the 1998 Omagh bomb, the INLA called a ceasefire."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/...t_files.shtml?

A remake of the old Paul McCartney classic.

Look at the chaos that has erupted from a mere flag. What do you think would realistically happen under your plan? For a United Ireland to succeed (as I also would like to see) then you simply have to take a majority of Protestants with you...your policy would alienate them and drive them into the arms of the extremists. Your policy again misunderstands the heart of the probłem. You see the core of the problem today as a meddlesome British government. In reality the core of the problem today is not the British government or the Irish government but relations between the Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland. Anything else is a sideshow.

One step that is needed is an end to divided schooling, this can start to break down barriers and build a better future.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #25
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

Look at the chaos that has erupted from a mere flag. What do you think would realistically happen under your plan? For a United Ireland to succeed (as I also would like to see) then you simply have to take a majority of Protestants with you...your policy would alienate them and drive them into the arms of the extremists.

Your policy again misunderstands the heart of the probłem. You see the core of the problem today as a meddlesome British government. In reality the core of the problem today is not the British government or the Irish government but relations between the Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland. Anything else is a sideshow.

One step that is needed is an end to divided schooling, this can start to break down barriers and build a better future.
You still don't understand, do ya John Bull? My plan? Its not for me to have a "plan" here, any more than it is for you buggers to. Ireland is not a laboratory experiment for Fuckingham Palace and their Westminstrels.

If Protestants want to stay, they are welcome to (like former President Mary Robinson's husband, for example) and those who want to move to places like Scotland are presumably welcome there. And as Julie Halard could tell ya, Belfast isn't fucking Vichy.

Again, the main reason so-called "Ulster Province" was created was because after WWI, Winston Churchill and David Lloyd George, et al wanted nearby offshore ports for the next time ya had ta fight the Jerries. Which seems logical (as the rape of Germany in the 1919 Treaty of Versailles virtually guaranteed a rematch).

But the way you do that is via an agreement. Would Irish nationalists have held occassional protest marches outside leased naval facilities, sure. But just like Fidel Castro didn't try to sieze Guantanamo Bay even @ the height of the Cold War, no Taoiseach would have attacked a British base there. The Bantustan called "Ulster" was a mistake, let your Welfare Queen give it back!
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #26
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
Who is this 'you' to whom you refer?

Now is what matters...who is the main problem now?

a) The British government

or

b) Extremists on both sides

Since Tony Blair came to power the British government has been a force for peace in Northern Ireland. It's an element of the people of Northern Ireland that today are the problem.
you meaning "one" - in this case the british state, but it holds true for anywhere.

the main problem right now is the same as it has been since ireland was taken from the irish. i'm not saying that makes this particular government culpable, but that is the root of all these problems and it will never be resolved satisfactorily for every party.
unionist rioting, dissident republican groups targeting the police - sure, that is a problem, but that fact remains that britain caused this. i'm simply taking issue with your assertion that mainland britain is not the source of the problems.

where they go from here, i don't know. northern ireland is such a stupid, artificial creation that it can't surprise anyone that there is no real identity. even the major sports teams are anomalous. the ireland rugby team is al all-ireland one, whereas the irish football team is split and if you happen to be a catholic or play for celtic as well as northern ireland, then you are likely to get abuse which may escalate to death threats, as has been the case even in the last couple of years. do many unionists support an all-ireland rugby team? do many republicans support a northern irish football team?
the right solution in the past was to pull out entirely and literally give ireland back to the irish. britain took it, like they took so many other countries, but eventually gave them back. however, it is all the more complicated now if, as i think likely, ireland doesn't want northern ireland. the whole thing is a mess.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 02:05 PM   #27
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post

you meaning "one" - in this case the british state, but it holds true for anywhere.

the main problem right now is the same as it has been since ireland was taken from the irish. i'm not saying that makes this particular government culpable, but that is the root of all these problems and it will never be resolved satisfactorily for every party.

unionist rioting, dissident republican groups targeting the police - sure, that is a problem, but that fact remains that britain caused this. i'm simply taking issue with your assertion that mainland britain is not the source of the problems.

where they go from here, i don't know. northern ireland is such a stupid, artificial creation that it can't surprise anyone that there is no real identity. even the major sports teams are anomalous. the ireland rugby team is al all-ireland one, whereas the irish football team is split and if you happen to be a catholic or play for celtic as well as northern ireland, then you are likely to get abuse which may escalate to death threats, as has been the case even in the last couple of years. do many unionists support an all-ireland rugby team? do many republicans support a northern irish football team?

the right solution in the past was to pull out entirely and literally give ireland back to the irish. britain took it, like they took so many other countries, but eventually gave them back. however, it is all the more complicated now if, as i think likely, ireland doesn't want northern ireland. the whole thing is a mess.
Maybe the (re-united) Republic grants its counties "X, Y, or Z degree" of autonomy, based on dialogue. In terms of Dublin not wanting those 6 counties, this was said about Germany after the Berlin Wall was opened in 1989. (The joke had been that East Germany could sell that wall and the other barriers along the border to West Germany, so the latter cold keep the East Germans out).

Of course the Bonn-based Federal Republic did reunite with the old GDR. Also, though South Korea fears a collapse of the North and a flood of refugees, NO government in Seoul could seriously reject that type of genuine reunification. (I know, Pyongyang would like a "different form" of reunification). Anyhow, for all I know, the 6 counties would be gradually re-integrated into the Republic.

The main point is that this is something for the residents of Ireland to decide, with the colonial power having to pony up a whole lot of money as "alimony". And B4 anyone makes a comparison with the Native Americans, I'd absolutely support them getting sovereignty ova a great deal of contiguous land, as the 1973 Wounded Knee uprising's leaders demanded. (Plus a lot of money, especially given all the broken treaties).

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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #28
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Re: Belfast riots

Have my tennis intervarsities up in Belfast in a few weeks. Cannot wait.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #29
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Re: Belfast riots

As a side note, I'd love for people to stop referring to N. Ireland as "Ulster."

"I love Ulster!"
"I stand for Ulster!"
"I'm a proud Ulsterman!"

Sooooo...you love Northern Ireland, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan but aren't as fond of the rest of Ireland? It makes no sense. Ulster is made up of 9 counties. N.I. is made up of 6. If you love Ulster so much, learn what it actually is because I'd say Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are some of your least favourite counties either side of the border!


There's a bit of an issue brewing over the use of quotes from hunger strikers in an art installation in a new museum in Athlone.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #30
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Re: Belfast riots

I can't really offer my advice on travelling up here really. Apparently the last few days have seen some of the worst rioting, although I was leaving my sister up to the bus station as she was going back to uni a couple of nights ago, it's in a pretty bitter area and there was no sign of anything. It's likely safer during the day.
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