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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #31
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post
You guys have no idea. What does ITF has to do with a country politics? This is not the same situation as Dubai where the problem was the country approach to Israel. Here Chavez does not equal Venezuela. There are many people there against Chavez and its politics. Most probably the people organizing the event (rich people related to tennis) is against him and would have no problem hosting the Israelian player. So why ITF should sanction Venezuela? That would only hurt the organizers who want to promote tennis and already have many problems with current government.

And regarding Chávez, yeah, he may act as a dictator in his manner but he got there winning democratic ellections. And you know why? Because in the 80s Venezuela was a very rich country due to oil but in the end all the wealthy was shared by a very small part of the country, around the 5% of population while poverty was spread all over the country. Now virtually everybody as something to eat in their tables and Venezuela has shared all that wealth with all its citizens. Do you think all those millions of people are retards who voted for him are just puppets who just agree with all th officialist press while having nothing? No, they vote for him because they have seen how education has reached everyone and nobody is starving in the streets.Yes, that's socialism, something Americans dread but it has worked there for all those million of people who had NOTHING and now has the basics and they are grateful for this and adore Chávez for that. Of course, wealthy people and those American vultures who expoiled their oil for years are so beligarent against him.
I don't condone the denial of of visa, but this a good post, very informative.

However, I doubt most posters would put in its proper perspective.
They have heard so many times that Chavez is a dictator, it will take a lot more to convince them that he has won 2 elections.

It is so tempting to make an argument against a country and its leader when you throw in the word "dictator".
You don't really have to do a whole lot to bolster you argument if you find a way to work in the word "dictator"
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #32
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Major facepalm moment here. Was she carrying illegal drugs?
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #33
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by Tripp View Post
I'm an immigration lawyer and I know for a fact that, as someone well said, no one is entitled to a visa. Is it unfair? Yes, but it's the way immigration politics work in this World.

Most of the times these things are caused by lazy or stupid embassy employees who don't care about one's need to enter the country.
Agree nobody is entitled to a visa to any country. It's a decision made by the immigration authorities of each country not an ITF issue. Frankly this is another non story.

Also regards Chavez, Spiceboys post sums up Venezuela, so neoliberals keep on hating.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #34
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

a) i wonder if she did it on purpose to get free ranking points aka PEER
b) israel IS the worst
c) if anyone would like to take this oppurtunity and marry me, please speak up. i don't mind being held as a hitting pertner eithet
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #35
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Agree nobody is entitled to a visa to any country. It's a decision made by the immigration authorities of each country not an ITF issue. Frankly this is another non story.

Also regards Chavez, Spiceboys post sums up Venezuela, so neoliberals keep on hating.
It's an ITF issue since it is responsible for providing each player ranked high enough the chance to participate in every tournament she chooses. If they decide to set their tournaments in countries with hatred-driven governments, it's their fault.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #36
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Does the ITF guarantee participation at any tournament they have and if they do that is an idiotic policy on their part. They should at least have an immigration clause.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #37
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Quote:
Originally Posted by adner View Post
It's an ITF issue since it is responsible for providing each player ranked high enough the chance to participate in every tournament she chooses. If they decide to set their tournaments in countries with hatred-driven governments, it's their fault.
Anyone who goes travelling anywhere, ever - the first thing you learn is that you are responsible for your own visa. There is no evidence the government is anti-semitic or hatred driven, it could just be a clerical error.

The players sign a contract with the WTA tour at the beginning of the year. I've not been aware of any specific details or the format of these contracts ever having been made public but I imagine it has some sort of immigration clause. Surprised if it's much different for ITF.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 05:44 PM   #38
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Does the ITF guarantee participation at any tournament they have and if they do that is an idiotic policy on their part. They should at least have an immigration clause.
There should be a clause in ITF contract that each organizing country must agree to award visa to all players except in extraordinary circumstances.

The federation of the said country should be fined if they do not abide by the rules. Repeat offenders can be assessed higher fees, and if non-compliance continues, the ultimate sanctions should be taken, which mean permanent or finite suspension, similar to "death penalty" used by NCAA against universities and colleges in the USA.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #39
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
I don't condone the denial of of visa, but this a good post, very informative.

However, I doubt most posters would put in its proper perspective.
They have heard so many times that Chavez is a dictator, it will take a lot more to convince them that he has won 2 elections.

It is so tempting to make an argument against a country and its leader when you throw in the word "dictator".
You don't really have to do a whole lot to bolster you argument if you find a way to work in the word "dictator"
Most of these posters are Americans, they are probably just brainwashed by their media and their government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolás89 View Post
Ignorant post (and ignorant girl with the banner). I'm sure many people from Israel doesn't feel the way their gov is dealing with the palestinians is the correct one and are against it, it's like calling all german people from the 40's nazis, stop embarrasing yourself.
Surprisingly, these people keep voting for right-wing political parties who are opposed to any form of peace with Palestine. Surely, if these people were bothered by Israel's treatment of Palestine, they would vote for other parties who promotes peace, wouldn't they? I mean if Egyptians, Tunisians, Libyans can get rid of the dictators who have been ruling their countries for 30 years, the Israelis can get rid of their belligerent government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Magicman View Post
There's other countries on this planet doing exactly what Israel does and they are well respected countries in this world.

So it must be something else, what drives you folks... and I think I know what it is.
Yes, PALESTINE is what drives us. You know, not everyone who disagrees with Israel is necessarily an antisemitic asshole. Some of us are disgusted and repulsed by treatment of Palestinians and Gaza. We don't want history to repeat itself.

I'm sorry I know this is a tennis forum, not a political one, but I couldn't ignore some of these comments.
I wonder what would have been the reaction if a player from Iran or Cuba were denied a visa by the USA. Of course since these countries are evil and committed far worst crimes than Israel (obvious sarcasm), the reactions would have been totally different.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #40
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
Anyone who goes travelling anywhere, ever - the first thing you learn is that you are responsible for your own visa. There is no evidence the government is anti-semitic or hatred driven, it could just be a clerical error.

The players sign a contract with the WTA tour at the beginning of the year. I've not been aware of any specific details or the format of these contracts ever having been made public but I imagine it has some sort of immigration clause. Surprised if it's much different for ITF.
Good point, we do not know the details and circumstances surrounding the denial of visa.

I think what is at play here, is that for both countries with reputation and history coming in, posters have assumed the worse and draw conclusion based on that.

Israel is a Jewish state, so the motivation must be anti-semitic
Venezuela head of state is Chavez, a leader who does not have pronounced hostilities toward Arab nations and drives most countries in the west nuts.
He is also considered by most western government and their population as dictator, despite having won 2 elections. Therefore most assume he deliberately did to irriate the west and/or out of anti-semistim.


Absent is the answer to the question of whether the player did every thing reasonable, possible and acceptable to comply with the law of Venezuela and get a visa in time.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #41
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by caboche View Post
Most of these posters are Americans, they are probably just brainwashed by their media and their government.
I noticed you added the disclaimer word "most" , that is good.

But I beg to differ, I do think most western Europeans and North Americans, including Canada , feel that way.
I can admit, that we, in the USA lead the pack, but I reject your suggestion that we Americans are an exception in the west. we are only few degree apart from other Western nation of thinking about the 2 countries involved here.

I have heard the BBC referred to Chavez as a dictator several times.


BTW, our crazy FOXNews here in the USA, has lots of viewer in Canada.
And the most popular host on that station get a lot of fans mail from Canadians who complain to him that Canada is living under socialism, (a word frequently used in unflattering way against Obama by that host and the station) to his delight.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 06:20 PM   #42
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by adner View Post
It's not about being with Israel. If you host a WTA/ITF tournament in your country, you should not be allowed to handpick the players able to play it. It's against common sense.
Whats common sense got to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis-seles View Post
No one is entitled to a visa, so the first thing people need to do is lose the sense of entitlement. It's up to the country to determine who it wants to issue a visa to and who it doesn't - nor does the issuing country owe the applicant any explanation for why the visa is not being issued.
This.

I cannot stand Chavez or this country, but its their business.

There are dozens of other countries she can play in, so why bother going someplace where you are clearly not wanted.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #43
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
There should be a clause in ITF contract that each organizing country must agree to award visa to all players except in extraordinary circumstances.

The federation of the said country should be fined if they do not abide by the rules. Repeat offenders can be assessed higher fees, and if non-compliance continues, the ultimate sanctions should be taken, which mean permanent or finite suspension, similar to "death penalty" used by NCAA against universities and colleges in the USA.
I'd imagine not many 10ks could guarantee a visa. Like there are various reasons for visa denial, politics, flight risk, criminal convictions, espionage threat to name some.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 06:37 PM   #44
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
I'd imagine not many 10ks could guarantee a visa. Like there are various reasons for visa denial, politics, flight risk, criminal convictions, espionage threat to name some.
Notice I added extraordinary circumstances. However, I do think politics should not be one of them.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #45
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by Nicolás89 View Post
Ignorant post (and ignorant girl with the banner). I'm sure many people from Israel doesn't feel the way their gov is dealing with the palestinians is the correct one and are against it, it's like calling all german people from the 40's nazis, stop embarrasing yourself.
Of course many people from Israel don't feel the same way as their government but this girl (and myself) are obviosuly pointing out at the government who are actually the ones doing this.

I always thought that there is nothing more filthy and disgusting that after all the suffering and desolation that jews had to go through they do what they do to the Palestinians. Because one thing is the crazy terrorists of Hamas and another one is the Palestian people. A country like Israel simply cannot put itself at the same level as a terrorist organization. And that is exactly what they are doing.
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