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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 08:50 PM   #4261
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
The most valid criticism of prime Caro is that she rarely brought her best tennis to grand slams (in fact this is still true now, despite her best level declining).
I don't know. She did well in the two hardcourt slams where she was supposed to do well. Unfortunately she ran into the likes of Clijsters and Serena, but she couldn't beat them in regular tour events either. There were disappointing losses against Zvonareva and Li as well, but it's not embarrassing to lose against them. All things considered her slam record from late 2009-2011 is pretty good. She was never the top favorite going into any slam though and she didn't have luck on her side like a, say, Marion Bartoli a few weeks ago. For the last (almost) two years she wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the opportunity even if she got lucky in terms of the draw because her level is just not good enough anymore. To do a Bartoli you still have to be able to deliver from your end and Caro just can't do that anymore.
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 08:55 PM   #4262
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Yeah, a player who is #1 for 67 weeks and won 20 titles should have done better than 1 slam final and no slam wins.

Also the sport is changing now where players dont win a lot of majors early in their careers.
All the players under 25 now, only Vika and Petra won majors.
I dont know what that means going forward, but Caro is not close now. She hasnt been even to a slam QF since she was #1
Caro is currently joint 28th in points earned from grand slams in the current rankings with Elena Vesnina and Jie Zheng.

This is something you could label at her entire career though, she's under-performed at grand slams too often. There has been a lack of her bringing her best tennis in the latter stages of majors or to majors full stop. The match vs Zvonareva right at the peak of her powers kind of epitomises Caro's overall performances at grand slams, a very winnable match, and she posts a very average performance. Vs Li she was one point away and for whatever reason couldn't get it done. Clijsters was ripe for the taking again in Australia last year, and Caro couldn't get it done. Her performances for someone of her level have been average at Roland Garros and Wimbledon.
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 10:33 PM   #4263
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
I don't know. She did well in the two hardcourt slams where she was supposed to do well. Unfortunately she ran into the likes of Clijsters and Serena, but she couldn't beat them in regular tour events either. There were disappointing losses against Zvonareva and Li as well, but it's not embarrassing to lose against them. All things considered her slam record from late 2009-2011 is pretty good. She was never the top favorite going into any slam though and she didn't have luck on her side like a, say, Marion Bartoli a few weeks ago. For the last (almost) two years she wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the opportunity even if she got lucky in terms of the draw because her level is just not good enough anymore. To do a Bartoli you still have to be able to deliver from your end and Caro just can't do that anymore.

I couldn't agree more.

I've never considered Caro's slam record in her heyday at AO and USO with those SFs she was getting as anything other than good. Sure we'd like her to have won those Vera and Li semis. But I never judge any player in any sport on the outcome of one or two matches in their whole career. The point is not that she lost those two matches then but her play now that she can't perform like she could and make the SFs at a slam now. For me - it's just not even worth imagining she could get anywhere near to the SF right now.

Incidentally Caro had the 2nd best record of slam mathes won in 2011 and Masha just pipped Caro for the most number of matches won in slams that year. And neither Masha nor Caro won a slam title that year.

Petra: Q 4 W 1 (4+3+7=14)
1st round defeat and not making it past Q apart from the slam she won.

Li: F W 2 1 (6+7+1=14)
Fantastic 1st 2 slams but 1st and 2nd round exits after that.

Sam: 3 3 1 W (2+2+7=11)
Great USO bit a 1st round exit and not past the 3rd round on the rest

Kim: W 2 (7+1=8)
One win, but then 2nd round exit and not able to even play the others.

Caro: S 3 4 S (5+2+3+5=15)
At least no embarrasing 1st or 2nd round exits and makes it to SF twice.

Masha: 4 S F 3 (3+5+6+2=16)
Identical to Caro except swap one of Caro's semis for a final.
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 10:56 PM   #4264
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

SF, 3rd round, 4th round, SF sounds okay, but Vika, Maria or Serena would not be happy with that.
Its not a good slam year for a big 3.
It was okay, but for the #1 player, its not great, and its her best year at the majors.
I'd take it next year, thats for sure. But a top 3 would be disappointed with it
If Caro doesnt make the QF at this US Open, she goes into the 2014 AO without a slam QF for 2 full years
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 11:13 PM   #4265
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
I don't know. She did well in the two hardcourt slams where she was supposed to do well. Unfortunately she ran into the likes of Clijsters and Serena, but she couldn't beat them in regular tour events either. There were disappointing losses against Zvonareva and Li as well, but it's not embarrassing to lose against them. All things considered her slam record from late 2009-2011 is pretty good. She was never the top favorite going into any slam though and she didn't have luck on her side like a, say, Marion Bartoli a few weeks ago. For the last (almost) two years she wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the opportunity even if she got lucky in terms of the draw because her level is just not good enough anymore. To do a Bartoli you still have to be able to deliver from your end and Caro just can't do that anymore.
Sorry didn't see you had snuck in a post before my last one .

While she often ran into Serena, she also had winnable matches in those semi's. At the end of the day win or lose in these matches, she didn't bring her best game to grand slams often enough, and this is as a whole, not just the hard court majors, she played better at the premiers outside Roland Garros, but never really played well at Roland Garros for example. Losing to Zvonareva and Li of course are not embarrassing losses, but they are disappointing losses for someone of Caro's level then, they demonstrate Caro's failure to peak at grand slams. When you are world number 1 making the semi-finals is pretty much the minimum requirement.

Caro's biggest problem from the last stand point, is seemingly the only surface she can hold her end of the bargain is hard court, but everyone can play on hard court, unless everyone gets injured, you are unlikely to see a complete collapse in a hard court grand slam.

Obviously this is all in the past now, but there's not really a lot to say about the future that hasn't already been said. I think things will pick up on hard courts (but it's hardly possibly not to), but in terms of actually being competitive at the top end of the game she feels so far removed right now.
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 11:19 PM   #4266
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
...

Caro's biggest problem from the last stand point, is seemingly the only surface she can hold her end of the bargain is hard court, but everyone can play on hard court, unless everyone gets injured, you are unlikely to see a complete collapse in a hard court grand slam.

Obviously this is all in the past now, but there's not really a lot to say about the future that hasn't already been said. I think things will pick up on hard courts (but it's hardly possibly not to), but in terms of actually being competitive at the top end of the game she feels so far removed right now.
I dont agree about hardcourt. The only seed Vika played until the final at this year's AO was Stephens. Then Li was injured in the final.

I think as Serena gets older, hardcourt majors will fall apart a lot. But Caro will have to improve to take advantage.
About majors, everyone would rather have a win then early loss, rather than 2 semi losses. You want to win as many as you can. Any year you win a major is a good year
So 7+2 is not less than 5+5. The goal is to get as many 7's as you can
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 11:32 PM   #4267
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
SF, 3rd round, 4th round, SF sounds okay, but Vika, Maria or Serena would not be happy with that.
Its not a good slam year for a big 3.
It was okay, but for the #1 player, its not great, and its her best year at the majors.
I'd take it next year, thats for sure. But a top 3 would be disappointed with it
If Caro doesnt make the QF at this US Open, she goes into the 2014 AO without a slam QF for 2 full years

I don't think it's as simple as that. The current top 3 had all won slams, have an attacking game that favours the slams and have pulled out a big gap over the rest of the field. Say it was 6 or 7 players that had pulled out a big gap over the rest - what the top 3 might consider good is different. The other thing is that it wasn't clay or grass (whether the tournament was a slam or no) that got Caro to #1 - so it's only really the hard court slams I looked at when I say I liked her slam record.

Who do you think was happy with their slam record 2011 then? Petra was arguably the best player on the WTA tour that year, she got the POY and finished #2 (Caro just hanging on to the YE #1 by narrowest of margins). Yet she won fewer matches at slams that year than Caro (although better % since she only lost 3 times). And Sharapova was #3 with a very similar record to Caro. So was she happy with her slam record and do you think she underperformed there? They were the #1 #2 & #3

So I don't think you can compare what a #1-#3 should get and be happy with one year to a different year.
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 11:37 PM   #4268
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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I dont agree about hardcourt. The only seed Vika played until the final at this year's AO was Stephens. Then Li was injured in the final.

I think as Serena gets older, hardcourt majors will fall apart a lot. But Caro will have to improve to take advantage.

About majors, everyone would rather have a win then early loss, rather than 2 semi losses. You want to win as many as you can. Any year you win a major is a good year
So 7+2 is not less than 5+5. The goal is to get as many 7's as you can
Sharapova made the semi-finals and lost to a better player on the day, Serena got injured and still made the QF. That's not falling apart, there was still one of them on each side of the draw in the semi-finals. For Caro to be taking advantage in a draw like that she would have to be the one beating Sharapova or Azarenka. These are also the top seeds, by definition they have the easiest draws. This kinda links into my point I was going to make about your previous post (which I fully agreed with btw ). SF really as world number 1 is what you expect. As world number 1 you are probably only playing on average 1 tough player to reach the semi's (note on average, sometimes you will get tough draws, other times easy).

Serena will get older yes, that will make draws more open, but I'm not really sure it's something to fall back on as hope with regards to Caro. At the same time the younger players will get better, Stephens may already overtake Caro in the rankings this year. Besides there's nothing to really gain from this, Caro hasn't got far enough to play a top 4 seed in 2 years.

Oh and I fully agree with your last point too. Really S, R3, R4, S isn't *that* special. It's not like she posted F, SF, SF, SF or something. S, R3, R4, S isn't so wonderfully consistent that it comes anywhere close to winning a grand slam in terms of arguing who was better in the grand slams in the year imo. I'd take the women who won grand slams in 2011's record every single time, they win on nearly every measurement, even on number of points accumulated at grand slams on the year (bar Kim who only played 2 majors).
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Old Jul 21st, 2013, 11:39 PM   #4269
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I thought F, SF, SF in 3 straight US Opens was very good. I thought Caro would win several majors the way she played summer 2010 - summer 2011.
But when I look back at 2011, I see it as a year she started to decline, not as a year she had good majors.
She should have at least been able to sustain, if not improve, but by the YEC it was clear she was less consistent.

Its a whole career, not comparing two slam semis to a major title in one year.
I think if she continues similar to Jankovic & Ivanovic, where a slam QF is considered good after their one or 2 good years, it will be viewed as a disappointing run at majors

Look, this Wimbledon was a real fluke. Crazy, between injuries, upsets and lopsided draw. Might not see that again for 20 years.
But this AO was soft for Vika. It was a look at the future. Serena is older, Maria has a ton of offcourt stuff, and everyone else is beatable, unless Vika is an alltime great
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Old Jul 22nd, 2013, 12:03 AM   #4270
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Caro's biggest problem from the last stand point, is seemingly the only surface she can hold her end of the bargain is hard court, but everyone can play on hard court, unless everyone gets injured, you are unlikely to see a complete collapse in a hard court grand slam.
I think this was an important point which I agree with when considering Caro in her heyday. Not that she was bad in slams because on hard court AO and USO she had a good record. But that her results and play on grass and clay were more the problem.
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Old Jul 22nd, 2013, 12:10 AM   #4271
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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I don't think it's as simple as that. The current top 3 had all won slams, have an attacking game that favours the slams and have pulled out a big gap over the rest of the field. Say it was 6 or 7 players that had pulled out a big gap over the rest - what the top 3 might consider good is different. The other thing is that it wasn't clay or grass (whether the tournament was a slam or no) that got Caro to #1 - so it's only really the hard court slams I looked at when I say I liked her slam record.

Who do you think was happy with their slam record 2011 then? Petra was arguably the best player on the WTA tour that year, she got the POY and finished #2 (Caro just hanging on to the YE #1 by narrowest of margins). Yet she won fewer matches at slams that year than Caro. And Sharapova was #3 with a very similar record to Caro. So was she happy with her slam record and do you think she underperformed there? They were the #1 #2 & #3

So I don't think you can compare what a #1-#3 should get and be happy with one year to a different year.
Grass it's hard to say anything because the grass season basically is Wimbledon, that's it, that's all that really matters. But Caro has posted some good results on clay, ok she's never posted outstanding results, but she should be doing better at Roland Garros than she has been. You can't just ignore these other grand slams, these might be the place Caro ever gets a chance. Take Na Li, she probably states clay as her worst surface, but it's fairly likely the only grand slam she will have at the end of her career is on clay.

I don't really get this idea attacking tennis suits slams. Attacking tennis isn't more suited to slams than anywhere else. If this is true, attacking tennis suits every event. I think it's more the primarily attacking players are better than the primarily defensive players though. Ultimately you are best off being able to do both sufficiently, even all out aggression Maria Sharapova knows she needs to work hardest on her movement and get to as many balls as possible. This is one of the departments that separates them from the rest.

If you went purely on slam results then Li was the best player in 2011 imo. She won a slam, and made the final of another, I see nothing the rest did that compares with that. Obviously ultimately Kvitova went down as player of the year or whatever the award was, but that is because she also won Istanbul which stuck right in people's minds at the end of the year.

If you look at Caroline's losses in the grand slams on the year, 3 were disappointing. I see these results as average, not bad, but not great either.
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Old Jul 22nd, 2013, 12:14 AM   #4272
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

The problems with these discussions are that she dropped off. So we're looking at what she did vs what she could have done. All in the past.
Its like looking at Jankovic. She has some tough slam draws 2006 USO - 2008 USO.
Caroline didnt get a super soft major. The 4 times she was in a slam semi she had to beat Serena or Kim. Even when she lost to Li & Vera, they lost to Kim.

But her fall off has made that such a short window. A really good player would keep making these deep slam runs. And if its over, it wasnt long enough to be considered special. Making 4 slam semis and only one slam final for a former World #1, is nothing special for a whole career
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Old Jul 22nd, 2013, 12:44 AM   #4273
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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The problems with these discussions are that she dropped off. So we're looking at what she did vs what she could have done. All in the past.
Its like looking at Jankovic. She has some tough slam draws 2006 USO - 2008 USO.
Caroline didnt get a super soft major. The 4 times she was in a slam semi she had to beat Serena or Kim. Even when she lost to Li & Vera, they lost to Kim.

But her fall off has made that such a short window. A really good player would keep making these deep slam runs. And if its over, it wasnt long enough to be considered special. Making 4 slam semis and only one slam final for a former World #1, is nothing special for a whole career
Yep and that's really it. I always considered Caro back then on hard courts as a slam contender but not a favourite to win or even make the finals. So I never thought she was a disappointment or flop at those slams because she didn't get past the SFs. Her chances to win were just Mathematically better if she could just keep making the SFs. The odds come down that the stars are aligned for you one day if you are always there to be able to take advantage of anything.

In fact champions of all sports are often seen as being lucky in their wins. But it's really because even when it all looks lost - if anything does happen - they make sure they are there to take advantage.

But sadly that has all changed now. I need to see sustained evidence in regular tournaments before I can dream about her making SF at slams now.
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Old Jul 22nd, 2013, 12:47 AM   #4274
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I just hoping she can rebound in one these slam and can get back in the mix of the slams at least start marking to 4th-SF Basically the 2 week and I think that be a step in the right direction hopefully she can do at this year U.S. Open
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Old Jul 22nd, 2013, 02:54 AM   #4275
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

In my opinion, Caro's had only one "signature" win in a Grand Slam, and that was against Maria at the U.S. Open. Almost everyone had Maria winning that match, and it was great to see her prove them wrong in a rather routine fashion. Unfortunately, it was only the round of 16...

I don't think Caro ever brought her best level deep in the Grand Slams. I give her a pass for her one U.S. Open final against Clijsters, and even that was competitive. But her losses to Zvonareva, Li, and Clijsters in the Aussie Open QFs were really crushing. At least then I had hope that things would fall into place for just one Grand Slam. Now she can't even put herself in position to win majors.
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