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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 01:14 PM   #1861
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
This is a key point. I don't really know the ins and outs of Jankovic's career but almost certainly at some point she lost motivation the last few years. It probably happens in a lot of players who have success early then go away, you later on regain some desire to get back, but the problem is it's too late. Sure Jankovic may make a run at Istanbul this year (to be seen yet), but in terms of what she probably most wants winning grand slams - it's likely all over. And this is what I and I imagine others mean when I say Caro doesn't really have time just because she is 22, if it takes another 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden she regains a burning desire, it is likely to be way too late to make much of an impact at the top of the game.
Tell that to Sciavone.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 01:16 PM   #1862
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by CWTennis View Post
not all, some jump to another ship
Some of them have been standing on the bow since we left port shouting "We're sinking, we're sinking"...
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 01:28 PM   #1863
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
I would guess the reason you were more pissed off though is last year you expected better, those losses come as a surprise. This year its changed from being pissed off to just shrugging it off as expectation, her losses just aren't surprising anymore (even if they are upsets in the traditional sense).

While some of her losses last year were bad (the Ivanovic loss maybe the worst in terms of how she played), least they were still to players in the top 30 (and top 20 excluding Safarova). This year she has 6 losses to players not even in the top 60, it's just a whole other level of bad losses.

Anyway away discussing the now, surely Caroline is not going to play the schedule she has listed on her website. I thought she may have had a chance of racking up points at some of the premiers in the USO hard court summer, but according to her website she isn't playing any of them. She's just playing Toronto and Cincinnati. Though I guess is it really that accurate because we know she's playing Stuttgart and that isn't listed. I really don't think she can afford the skinny schedule she has listed on her website.
It's called being spoilt rotten. The air of expectation and reality of success stealing the spectacle of what was an outstanding run.

Between black and white there are many shades, and added to which, in the words of mads Wilander (paraphrased), "Sometimes you have to use the tournament to try out new experiments, and expect to loose", or "Some times you make a change for the future, at the risk of results today". I have always wondered where that fits into the 'pissing contest' mentality of GM. It doesn't.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 01:41 PM   #1864
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
What she is doing the last 2 years is hurting the preception of Caroline's career. I think thats the important fallout of this.
You can hear it from Davenport's analysis. She wants to make it that Wozniacki won some small tournaments when Serena and Maria were injured and Vika still was improving. When all 3 got good, Caroline just fell into the pack where she belonged.
Thats what all these losses to Pervak, Muguruza and Voegele are doing.
People can handle an occasional upset (like Serena FO) or a onesided loss (Maria AO 2012 final). Its when you constantly give the impression who arent that good (Caro's last 2 years), thats what people take away from it.

Its not terrible for fans, its reality, but its going to hurt how people view Caroline's overall ability and quality of her game
Davenport clearly still suffers from a total lack of love during her little attention grab on the tour. Personally I try and avoid that whole stateside hi school popularity scene. If by puberty you haven't realised that there is more world beyond the limits of your village, then you will always struggle to relate to a wider scheme of things...

Little Britain ran a great sketch for Lindsay...
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 02:18 PM   #1865
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Tell that to Sciavone.
Schiavone just peaked later in her career. She didn't peak, drop, then peak again. She'd been hovering around #20 for many years. There is a big difference in career graph.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #1866
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozza View Post
I would guess the reason you were more pissed off though is last year you expected better, those losses come as a surprise. This year its changed from being pissed off to just shrugging it off as expectation, her losses just aren't surprising anymore (even if they are upsets in the traditional sense).

While some of her losses last year were bad (the Ivanovic loss maybe the worst in terms of how she played), least they were still to players in the top 30 (and top 20 excluding Safarova). This year she has 6 losses to players not even in the top 60, it's just a whole other level of bad losses.

Anyway away discussing the now, surely Caroline is not going to play the schedule she has listed on her website. I thought she may have had a chance of racking up points at some of the premiers in the USO hard court summer, but according to her website she isn't playing any of them. She's just playing Toronto and Cincinnati. Though I guess is it really that accurate because we know she's playing Stuttgart and that isn't listed. I really don't think she can afford the skinny schedule she has listed on her website.
To be fair, two of those losses were to Kuznetsova who was ranked that low due to being out with an injury for a long while. She seems to be on track to finish the year in the top 30, maybe top 20.

Caro traditionally takes about a month or so break after Wimbledon. Stanford is a bit more than 2 weeks after the end of Wimbledon and San Diego is a bit more than 3 weeks after it. I'd prefer that Caro not schedule 3 weeks in a row though. There's also New Haven which is the week before the US Open, which may or not be an international, but I'd prefer that she not play the week before slams.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 02:37 PM   #1867
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burisleif View Post
It's called being spoilt rotten. The air of expectation and reality of success stealing the spectacle of what was an outstanding run.

Between black and white there are many shades, and added to which, in the words of mads Wilander (paraphrased), "Sometimes you have to use the tournament to try out new experiments, and expect to loose", or "Some times you make a change for the future, at the risk of results today". I have always wondered where that fits into the 'pissing contest' mentality of GM. It doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burisleif View Post
Davenport clearly still suffers from a total lack of love during her little attention grab on the tour. Personally I try and avoid that whole stateside hi school popularity scene. If by puberty you haven't realised that there is more world beyond the limits of your village, then you will always struggle to relate to a wider scheme of things...

Little Britain ran a great sketch for Lindsay...
Firstly between these 2 posts aren't you pretty much just posting the pundits opinion you want to believe, and then just completely rubbishing the one you don't want to believe. Davenport still has an opinion, and as sad as it may be goldenlox is right, that will be popular opinion to just lump Caroline in with Safina, Jankovic etc., as "number 1s that could never quite cut it". Whether that is correct is debateable, but there is no getting away with that is how she will be viewed.

Secondly I don't think it is being spoilt rotten. I am sure most people are not even necessarily disappointed that Caro has dropped from #1 to #10, or her lack of titles compared to the past. What I think disappoints most people is the belief she isn't maximising her career right now. Most people when you support a player in the long run just want to see that player what they perceive to be their best, having some idea of their limitations. I imagine a large number of people think Caroline is not maximising her career right now.

I don't get why you try to portray this image that losing is somehow a good thing, and that this decline is just ordinary in career progression.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #1868
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by Protoss View Post
To be fair, two of those losses were to Kuznetsova who was ranked that low due to being out with an injury for a long while. She seems to be on track to finish the year in the top 30, maybe top 20.

Caro traditionally takes about a month or so break after Wimbledon. Stanford is a bit more than 2 weeks after the end of Wimbledon and San Diego is a bit more than 3 weeks after it. I'd prefer that Caro not schedule 3 weeks in a row though. There's also New Haven which is the week before the US Open, which may or not be an international, but I'd prefer that she not play the week before slams.
Of course you are right with your first point. But even with that we're digging deep for the positive out of it. It's still not great to be losing to Kuznetsova twice in 2 weeks, especially in the fashion that she was effectively just out-toughed in the Australian Open. As has been pointed out, of these 6 opponents ranked outside the top 60 to beat Caroline, they have won a combined 1 match after beating Caroline.

On the second point I would agree if we could rely on Caroline to go deep in these events, and go into USO with a realistic shot of winning. The problem is this period is the first time since the Australian Open that Caroline is actually defending a reasonable number of points. These events are going to be a lot stronger than they were last year, and Caroline if she only plays 2 events has effectively got to make finals to gain anything. This is the prime time of season for Caroline to amass points with regards to the race to Istanbul. Almost certainly her fellow contenders in the race to Istanbul will be playing more than 2 events in this period.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 03:15 PM   #1869
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
Of course you are right with your first point. But even with that we're digging deep for the positive out of it. It's still not great to be losing to Kuznetsova twice in 2 weeks, especially in the fashion that she was effectively just out-toughed in the Australian Open. As has been pointed out, of these 6 opponents ranked outside the top 60 to beat Caroline, they have won a combined 1 match after beating Caroline.

On the second point I would agree if we could rely on Caroline to go deep in these events, and go into USO with a realistic shot of winning. The problem is this period is the first time since the Australian Open that Caroline is actually defending a reasonable number of points. These events are going to be a lot stronger than they were last year, and Caroline if she only plays 2 events has effectively got to make finals to gain anything. This is the prime time of season for Caroline to amass points with regards to the race to Istanbul. Almost certainly her fellow contenders in the race to Istanbul will be playing more than 2 events in this period.
If she wants to be in with a chance of making Istanbul she can't afford to lose too much ground from now up to and including Wimbledon. Many of the other contenders are better claycourt and/or grasscourt players than Caroline, but if she's still within striking distance come mid July she has a shot. Quite sad that we're even discussing this when only a few years ago our biggest concern was if she would be the first to qualify.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #1870
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Schiavone just peaked later in her career. She didn't peak, drop, then peak again. She'd been hovering around #20 for many years. There is a big difference in career graph.
She still won a slam.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #1871
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
If she wants to be in with a chance of making Istanbul she can't afford to lose too much ground from now up to and including Wimbledon. Many of the other contenders are better claycourt and/or grasscourt players than Caroline, but if she's still within striking distance come mid July she has a shot. Quite sad that we're even discussing this when only a few years ago our biggest concern was if she would be the first to qualify.
Yes she definitely needs a better clay and grass court season than last year. But we're still likely left with a situation that Caro's best chance of racking up points is on hard courts. Is playing just the 2 events in the 7 weeks between Wimbledon and US Open maximising that? Caro must be confident of making Istanbul anyway, she has it listed in her schedule on her website .

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She still won a slam.
Which is irrelevant to the point. She doesn't fit the description of what you were responding to.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #1872
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I Think Caro will add New Haven & maybe Carlsbad too her Summer US Hard court schedule, To me making the YEC, Winning a title & making at least two QF at the next three slam or better will be a good year for me consider the mix result that coming in so far, Hopeful it will happen.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #1873
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
Of course you are right with your first point. But even with that we're digging deep for the positive out of it. It's still not great to be losing to Kuznetsova twice in 2 weeks, especially in the fashion that she was effectively just out-toughed in the Australian Open. As has been pointed out, of these 6 opponents ranked outside the top 60 to beat Caroline, they have won a combined 1 match after beating Caroline.

On the second point I would agree if we could rely on Caroline to go deep in these events, and go into USO with a realistic shot of winning. The problem is this period is the first time since the Australian Open that Caroline is actually defending a reasonable number of points. These events are going to be a lot stronger than they were last year, and Caroline if she only plays 2 events has effectively got to make finals to gain anything. This is the prime time of season for Caroline to amass points with regards to the race to Istanbul. Almost certainly her fellow contenders in the race to Istanbul will be playing more than 2 events in this period.
Caro is defending 595 points during the summer, which doesn't seem like that many to me. Her YEC race standing is probably more important though.

Last year Caro's 16th best result was 200 points. She'll probably need something similar to that or better as her lowest counted result for this year if she wants to make the YEC. Right now her YEC race total includes four optional results under under 200 points with two 1 point results counted.

A semi in Stanford, Carlsbad, or New Haven (if it's still a premier) is worth 200 points and a quarterfinal in Toronto or Cincy is worth 225 points.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #1874
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozza View Post
Firstly between these 2 posts aren't you pretty much just posting the pundits opinion you want to believe, and then just completely rubbishing the one you don't want to believe. Davenport still has an opinion, and as sad as it may be goldenlox is right, that will be popular opinion to just lump Caroline in with Safina, Jankovic etc., as "number 1s that could never quite cut it". Whether that is correct is debateable, but there is no getting away with that is how she will be viewed.
No, the rest is just your opinion.

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Secondly I don't think it is being spoilt rotten. I am sure most people are not even necessarily disappointed that Caro has dropped from #1 to #10, or her lack of titles compared to the past. What I think disappoints most people is the belief she isn't maximising her career right now. Most people when you support a player in the long run just want to see that player what they perceive to be their best, having some idea of their limitations. I imagine a large number of people think Caroline is not maximising her career right now.
I don't remember you posting here back then. What was your previous UID?
There was a distinct air of fatigue at the number of matches we were waking up to watch. Caro was playing way above expectations with a game still in developement. Intoxicating times that really brought out the many facets of the human psyche on TF, something she continues to do...

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I don't get why you try to portray this image that losing is somehow a good thing, and that this decline is just ordinary in career progression.
Don't try and misrepresent what I'm saying, or suggest you know better than myself where I stand.

As far as i'm concerned, I have zero interest in reading endless hysteria about 'the end commeth' and ill informed doom and gloom, erronious comparisons, desperate cries for understanding, or gloating.

Sport and form is a many faceted and complex mix of margional variables, any of which can have an impact on results. I look at the balance and form an opinion based on what I see and understand. Caro dosent play a game like Maria, where it's either on or off, she changes her approach all the time, often on a match by match basis. I don't have all the answers, nor do I claim to have them, but I can see where her game is struggling compared to her previous standards, and that's a few margional issues together with some relative improvements undermined elsewhere.

There isn't a simple answer to her current form, and Nobody has all the answers, including Mads, but his opinion is relatively open minded, balanced, unbiased, and hugely respected, and certainly more insightful than Davenport's or anybody posting here. He also understands that what you work on in training are often new elements that you don't bring to matches. You go with a trusted set of tools, and playout changes at lesser events to test them in the wild. That sometimes results in a resigned face on the athlete, and reversion to the trusted toolset.

Her 1st serve isn't getting the effects it used too for too many reasons to type on an iPad, the 2nd serve is still far too safe, but better odds in play than in the net if you don't own a killer 1st, and she is loosing matches with shots that are margionaly out of bounds (and the margins are still coming down from last year) which she used to nail consistently, which is hurting her ability to take her chances, and or, pressure certain oponants. The latter is crucial because she needs to be able to wrestle control to force her game.

Some here think that her ground game is still having margional issues because she is getting laid, some think its because she watches golf, some think it's because shes a lazy cow with too much bling, but personnaly I think she has lost alot of feel and control, in part due to the switch, in part due to boxersize, in part due to mobility, and in part due to timming and technical changes. Before the switch her FH was not a weapon but it wasn't a weakness either because it had deapth and weight and sufficient variety that it was hard to read and hence exploint, often forcing erros, it has improved again lately with a shorter stoke, more advatageous positioning and taking the ball earlier, but it apears more predictable than before. Her backhand however, has been absent since the switch. What made it so effective before was it was so instinctive, beautifully disguised, and ulitmately reliable with considerable power, depth and preciscion. It no longer ticks those boxes. That can improve with time if she feels 100% comfortable with the stick of course, but right now it's clear she no longer fully trusts it.

We have talked this to death, and we have certainly seen posted and read enough obituaries here to warrant anymore. All in good time... With at least a six month lead time to every change, patience becomes a crucial requirement and so it is in any sport.

Can we please leave Davenport and her autistic needs to lable and categorise everything into dumb TV audience sized chunks, and similarly the comparisons to players who aren't similar, and are each unique human wonders, along with the prejudiced opinions of what qualifies success out of the conversation?

Life is too short.
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Old Apr 8th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #1875
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
If she wants to be in with a chance of making Istanbul she can't afford to lose too much ground from now up to and including Wimbledon. Many of the other contenders are better claycourt and/or grasscourt players than Caroline, but if she's still within striking distance come mid July she has a shot. Quite sad that we're even discussing this when only a few years ago our biggest concern was if she would be the first to qualify.
Who all are you counting as YEC contenders?
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The Babylon project was our last best hope for peace. A self-contained world five miles long, located in neutral territory. A place of commerce and diplomacy for a quarter of a million humans and aliens. A shining beacon in space, all alone in the night. It was the dawn of the third age of mankind, the year the great war came upon us all. This is the story of the last of the Babylon stations. The year is 2259, the name of the place is Babylon 5. (John Sheridan: Babylon 5: Season 2: The Coming of Shadows)
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