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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #121
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Sex-selection abortions of future girls, and even infanticide of female babies
Reason: Dowry which is illegal. You cannot account for human greed.
"Bride burnings", where a dowry was felt insufficient
Are you serious? The will be hanged for murder!
"Honour killings" (of brides, but I don't think grooms) for caste reasons
Societal norms. Yes grooms have been killed as well. All powerful Khap Panchayats need to be banned & those leaders need to be convicted.
I presume Ashi can add context to my admittedly far-removed information. The "real outcome" is not candlelight marches, or expressions of sympathy (by ppl like a state First Minister who should have loudly demanded action long ago; by a union Home Minister who got his job the day after the massive blackout in July when he was Power Minister or by the out-of-touch Prime Minister who promoted him then).
Most politicos are douche bags. They got there because of the said reason.
Its what happens starting this week in the state and (union, meaning Federal) parliaments. Maybe the governments of both should even resign, with new elections called. Maybe a new political alignment is needed, as happened after the short dictatorship PM Indira Gandhi imposed in the mid-70s.
Not applicable.
Maybe a huge # of police decoys need 2B deployed, making would-be rapists wonder who a young woman really is. (Also "counter decoys" to bust corrupt cops). And certainly every unresolved case of bride-burning, other "honour" killing, infanticide, and sex-selection abortion (where there's a pattern with a given clinic) should be investigated, with many prosecuted.
Law enforcement needs to take place.
Although the first three points IMO shouldn't be convoluted with rape.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 04:46 PM   #122
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Does the fact that all marriages are arranged is a contrubuting factor Indians young men lacking the skills to court girls/women?
You are mistaken if you think there is no courtship in an arranged marriage.
Although arranged marriages is at the center of Indian family stability compared to the west, its unintended consequences is that it has robbed young men the necessary social skills to negotiate romantic relationship with a girl.
Indian women don't give you the time of day if you don't have a good education, come from a good family & have good finances. If you don't any of these three attributes regardless of what a smooth talker you are, you are going to remain unmarried.(from my experience).
With that said, it does not explain the fact politicians and policemen, members of institutions charged to protect women, also sucumb to the crime of raping not only women, but also under age girls, and try to cover it up.
They rape because they can. Low conviction rate and no strong deterrents/laws.
The rapists in this case were low income jobless delinquents who had nothing going for them. If you have nothing going for you, you won't get a woman. They would have probably done this before and not gotten caught in a group and this alarming confidence in this incident.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #123
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by Ashi View Post
The rapists in this case were low income jobless delinquents who had nothing going for them. If you have nothing going for you, you won't get a woman. They would have probably done this before and not gotten caught in a group and this alarming confidence in this incident.
i'd go so far as to say that these sickos were so fucked in the head, they would've sexually assaulted women no matter which country they lived in. but india's lax security and paternalistic attitude towards women allowed them to rape in this particularly heinous way.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #124
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

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Originally Posted by Ashi View Post

Reason: Dowry which is illegal. You cannot account for human greed.

Societal norms. Yes grooms have been killed as well. All powerful Khap Panchayats need to be banned & those leaders need to be convicted.

Most politicos are douche bags. They got there because of the said reason.

Law enforcement needs to take place.
All you're saying is: "Hey public officials, do the right thing". Their failure to do so, presumably related to your words I quoted in bold, are a big reason this stuff still happens in 2012. Just asking the present scumbags to do a better job seems like a futile endeavour, no? Maybe they need you in the Lok Sabha (akin to the US House of Representatives).
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 06:09 PM   #125
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by Ashi View Post
You are mistaken if you think there is no courtship in an arranged marriage.
I take you word for it.
But let me just add my take.
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process

From what one of my colleague explained to me, which I may not get right here, but I will try to the best of my recollection , the future groom gets a list about 10 women (complete with photographs and suscint info) deemed suitable by his parents.

Then, future groom goes through an iterative process of elimination via a correspondence , using all communication means at his disposal; including traveling back to India to meet some of the candiates still in the running
The process will end with one lucky chosen woman.

So it seems to me, the parents have already done the initial heavy lifting by assembling the list; the women selected know they are in competition with other women. Making persuasive skills of the future groom in the courtship a negligible factor in the success of the courtship.

I see this as the future groom clearly being in driving seat.

I suspect for these women accept to be on list, they probaly have taken a liking to the man they were presented, maybe not emotional, but still they like what they see.
It would not make sense for a woman to waste time accepting to be on the list if she does not care for the guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi View Post
The rapists in this case were low income jobless delinquents who had nothing going for them. If you have nothing going for you, you won't get a woman. They would have probably done this before and not gotten caught in a group and this alarming confidence in this incident.
However, I do agree that education and financial situation play a major role.
But can't women and men of comparable education, income level enter the contract of marriage?
And I think this is where the lack of skill in courtship does the low income yougn men a disservice.

The parent not feeling confident that their sons will find a suitable mate, given his education and income level and the family standing, won't certainly be motivated to try to find one.

So normally, it would be up to the son to look for himself, and naturally he will look within his own social circles.
If that is too simplistic and anthropolgical, slap me.
I know we are veering off the main topic, but it has been informative.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #126
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post

It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process....
Simple arithmetic means that this has to change (probably has so already) after years of abhorrent sex-selection abortion (and whatever amount of female infanticide; a term I held off on using ITT until Ashi did, as I wasn't sure if its more than an extreme rarity these days).

In other words, they may already have a "potential bride shortage", that would take years after the artificial "tilt" away from letting girls be born and grow up ends to reverse. (Also in China, where the one-child policy has led to both regarding gender preferences, as families opt for boys they presume can provide for them in the parents' old age).

Why does rape happen more in Delhi than other parts of India? I don't know, but I doubt that news from outside the big cities is internationally reported very well. (Also maybe the case with rapes in China that aren't in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai).

And of course a huge number of rapes go unreported in societies where the girl or woman is blamed, ala "she was asking for it". That happens everywhere, more so in religiously fundamentalist communities; and not just Islamic ones, though the media gives the impression that the "blame the victim" thing is far more prevalent in them.

The BS about "virgin brides", right down to virginity exams and the old "white dress vs. pink dress" wedding stigma contributes to this. And a century ago in the US, parents who migrated from traditional societies (especially Catholic ones) would literally mail a blood-stained sheet from a new bride "losing her virginity" back to relatives in "the old country".

Groups not mentioned above (for example, my prudish Jewish forbears) are hardly innocent in terms of this double-standard either. BTW, I still have extremely high regard for Ashi, and hope that she will indeed win elective office.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #127
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Simple arithmetic means that this has to change (probably has so already) after years of abhorrent sex-selection abortion (and whatever amount of female infanticide; a term I held off on using ITT until Ashi did, as I wasn't sure if its more than an extreme rarity these days).

In other words, they may already have a "potential bride shortage", that would take years after the artificial "tilt" away from letting girls be born and grow up ends to reverse. (Also in China, where the one-child policy has led to both regarding gender preferences, as families opt for boys they presume can provide for them in the parents' old age).

Why does rape happen more in Delhi than other parts of India? I don't know, but I doubt that news from outside the big cities is internationally reported very well. (Also maybe the case with rapes in China that aren't in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai).

And of course a huge number of rapes go unreported in societies where the girl or woman is blamed, ala "she was asking for it". That happens everywhere, more so in religiously fundamentalist communities; and not just Islamic ones, though the media gives the impression that the "blame the victim" thing is far more prevalent in them..
I thought China's men/women ratio was much worse than anywhere else on the planet?


Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Groups not mentioned above (for example, my prudish Jewish forbears) are hardly innocent in terms of this double-standard either. BTW, I still have extremely high regard for Ashi, and hope that she will indeed win elective office.
Ashi is running for elective office?
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #128
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Unfuckingbelievable... so senseless. RIP young lady.




I would've thought Blacks were at the top, but then I haven't had the misfortune of reading his crap for as long as you have.
It's probably a tie but he doesn't get the same backlash against Muslims because they're not as many Muslims on this board.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #129
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
I take you word for it.
But let me just add my take.
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process

From what one of my colleague explained to me, which I may not get right here, but I will try to the best of my recollection , the future groom gets a list about 10 women (complete with photographs and suscint info) deemed suitable by his parents.

Then, future groom goes through an iterative process of elimination via a correspondence , using all communication means at his disposal; including traveling back to India to meet some of the candiates still in the running
The process will end with one lucky chosen woman.

So it seems to me, the parents have already done the initial heavy lifting by assembling the list; the women selected know they are in competition with other women. Making persuasive skills of the future groom in the courtship a negligible factor in the success of the courtship.

I see this as the future groom clearly being in driving seat.

I suspect for these women accept to be on list, they probaly have taken a liking to the man they were presented, maybe not emotional, but still they like what they see.
It would not make sense for a woman to waste time accepting to be on the list if she does not care for the guy.


However, I do agree that education and financial situation play a major role.
But can't women and men of comparable education, income level enter the contract of marriage?
And I think this is where the lack of skill in courtship does the low income yougn men a disservice.

The parent not feeling confident that their sons will find a suitable mate, given his education and income level and the family standing, won't certainly be motivated to try to find one.

So normally, it would be up to the son to look for himself, and naturally he will look within his own social circles.
If that is too simplistic and anthropolgical, slap me.
I know we are veering off the main topic, but it has been informative.
I wish my friend from India was still here so I could talk to her about this and get a honest answer from a woman's prespective but she moved to L.A. Yes there are rapes in the U.S. but the attitude of officials and society doesn't appear to be the same IMO.
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Old Dec 30th, 2012, 11:19 PM   #130
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by mykarma View Post
Yes there are rapes in the U.S. but the attitude of officials and society doesn't appear to be the same IMO.
Yes, that is key.
And we in the US have been where India is now.
  1. Authority not taking it seriously and/or not prosecuting the perpetrators
  2. Unsympathetic or indifferent public somehow blaming the victim, insinuating she brought it upon herself
  3. 1 and 2 lead the victim not willing to come forward for fear of being further humiliated and psychologically violated
Unfortunately it might take few more incident like this for both the public, government officials, law officials to gradually move do their respective parts.
Public keep applying the pressure on government and law enforcement official to hold them accountable.
Governmentofficials to remove law enforcement officials who don't take the act of rape as a serious crime.

It does not mean all rapes will be eliminated, making it unacceptable by part of the society will make things better.
And that is where the US is now. Of course we still have rapes, but we have mechanism to deal with the perpetrator effectively, giving a sense of security to women and their families, and warning the perpetrator that they will no longer get away with this crime.
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Old Dec 31st, 2012, 01:40 AM   #131
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

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Old Dec 31st, 2012, 01:46 AM   #132
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

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Tara Moss



- I applaud the protestors in Delhi who are fighting for the rights of women in their city to live without the constant fear of sexual violence. -
This is a direct response to Start da Game post below

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Originally Posted by Start da Game View Post
why should a woman in india need to go out at night alone unless in exceptional circumstances? no indian family encourages it as far as i know......that is the cultural difference i was talking about......

and delhi =/= india.....i did say earlier that something's wrong with delhi and also reasoned why......

what i don't like is people pointing at a nation with 1.2 billion people without knowing much about it......you guys maybe having public transport in every city at night because your population count maybe negligible compared to us and your resources/person might be plentiful.......
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Old Dec 31st, 2012, 04:20 AM   #133
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

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Old Dec 31st, 2012, 04:34 AM   #134
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
I take you word for it.
But let me just add my take.
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process

From what one of my colleague explained to me, which I may not get right here, but I will try to the best of my recollection , the future groom gets a list about 10 women (complete with photographs and suscint info) deemed suitable by his parents.

Then, future groom goes through an iterative process of elimination via a correspondence , using all communication means at his disposal; including traveling back to India to meet some of the candiates still in the running
The process will end with one lucky chosen woman.

So it seems to me, the parents have already done the initial heavy lifting by assembling the list; the women selected know they are in competition with other women. Making persuasive skills of the future groom in the courtship a negligible factor in the success of the courtship.

I see this as the future groom clearly being in driving seat.

I suspect for these women accept to be on list, they probaly have taken a liking to the man they were presented, maybe not emotional, but still they like what they see.
It would not make sense for a woman to waste time accepting to be on the list if she does not care for the guy.
This can occur the other way around also.

However, I do agree that education and financial situation play a major role.
But can't women and men of comparable education, income level enter the contract of marriage?
Yes they can. This is the way many young Indians go about it.
And I think this is where the lack of skill in courtship does the low income yougn men a disservice.

The parent not feeling confident that their sons will find a suitable mate, given his education and income level and the family standing, won't certainly be motivated to try to find one.

So normally, it would be up to the son to look for himself, and naturally he will look within his own social circles.
If that is too simplistic and anthropolgical, slap me.
I know we are veering off the main topic, but it has been informative.
Yeah, let's not deviate.
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Old Dec 31st, 2012, 04:37 AM   #135
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Ashi is running for elective office?
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