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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 01:51 AM   #151
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykarma View Post
It wouldn't matter where this happened I think the outrage would be the same but find the rest of your post puzzling. The fact that the protest are happening shows that your countrymen do have a long way to go regarding this particular issue with women. As has been previously stated, all countries have their issues and their citizens have had to fight for their civil rights and even after winning those rights it takes a while to change the hearts of those that have been the oppressor.

It's great to see the support that the women are getting from the young men and hope they'll protect them from harm.
I did try to make that same point.

In many countries, when people had to fight for their rights, they had to go through these stages of struggles and keep at it for sometimes before the majority of the population comes on board.
In the USA, it happened with Africa-Americans civil right in the USA, women rights to vote, gay rights, right of disable, etc..

Even after laws are passed, there is still resistance from those who oppose these rights in the first place
It takes time to change minds and have a majority consensus that will accept the new reality.

I think this what is meant when posters say "India still has a long way to go."
But as you can see, some Indian posters think it is showing their country in a bad light, insinuating they are backward.
They find malicious intent hidden behind those words.

Actually, I do think Indians have experience with this, having fought for their independence from the British, which did not come easy as we all know. It took time and bloodshed to do it. In fact MLK was inspired by Ghandi's tactics that included patience.

Same thing in South Africa against Apartheid.
As a note, South African Blacks and Indians were and still are great political allies in South Africa.
ANC leadership included South African Indians and went to prison with Nelson Mandela; and other senior members who managed to stay out to go to exile, organize protests, illegal at the time, to keep changing minds.

Objective observers also thought South Africa had a long way to go during the struggle, considering where most countries were with respect to basic human right. Of course the Apartheid supporters thought every thing was well and dandy.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 03:20 AM   #152
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

In Indian student's gang rape, murder, two worlds collide

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - One of hundreds of attacks reported in New Delhi each year, the gang rape and murder of a medical student caught Indian authorities and political parties flat-footed, slow to see that the assault on a private bus had come to symbolize an epidemic of crime against women.

In the moments before the December 16 attack, the 23-year-old woman from India's urban middle class, who had recently qualified as a trainee physiotherapist in a private Delhi hospital, and her male friend, a software engineer, were walking home from a cinema at a shopping mall in south Delhi, according to a police reconstruction of events.

A bus, part of a fleet of privately owned vehicles used as public transport across the city of 16 million, and known as India's "rape capital", was at the same time heading toward them. Earlier that day, it had ferried school students but was now empty except for five men and a teenage boy, including its crew, police said. Most of the men were from the city's slums.

One of the six - all now charged with murder - lured the couple onto the bus, promising to drop the woman home, police have said, quoting from an initial statement that she gave from her hospital bed before her condition deteriorated rapidly.

A few minutes into the ride, her friend, 28, grew suspicious when the bus deviated from the supposed route and the men locked the door,
according to her statement. They then taunted her for being out with a man late at night, prompting the friend to intervene and provoking an initial scuffle.

The attackers then beat him with a metal rod, knocking him unconscious, before turning on the woman who had tried to come to his defense. Police say the men admitted after their arrest to torturing and raping the student "to teach her a lesson".

At one point, the bus driver gave the wheel to another of the accused and dragged the woman by the neck to the back of the vehicle and forced himself upon her. The other five then took turns raping her and also driving the bus, keeping it circling through the busy streets of India's capital city, police said.

The woman was raped for nearly an hour before the men pushed a metal rod inside her, severely damaging her internal organs, and then dumped both her and her friend on the roadside, 8 km (5 miles) from where they had boarded it, police said.

Robbed of their clothes and belongings, they were found half naked, bleeding and unconscious later that night by a passerby, who alerted the police.

Last year, a rape was reported on average every 20 minutes in India. Just 26 percent of the cases resulted in convictions, according to the National Crime Records Bureau, which registered 24,206 rapes in 2011, up from 22,141 the previous year.

At first, authorities treated the assault on the medical student as one crime among many, and they were not prepared for the furious public reaction that led to running battles between protesters and police near the heart of government in New Delhi.

FAMILY ROLE MODEL

The woman, whose identity has been withheld by police, gave her statement to a sub-divisional magistrate on December 21 in the intensive care unit of Delhi's Safdarjung Hospital, according to media reports. She was undergoing multiple surgical procedures and her condition later began to rapidly worsen.

Ten days after the attack and still in a critical condition, she was flown to Singapore for specialist treatment. She died in Singapore's Mount Elizabeth Hospital two days later. Her body was flown back to Delhi and cremated there on Sunday in a private ceremony.

Family members who had accompanied her to Singapore declined to speak to reporters, but relatives told the Times of India newspaper she had been a role model to her two younger brothers.

Unlike most traditional Indian families who only send their sons to fee-paying colleges or universities, her parents pinned their hopes on the daughter and took loans to fund her studies.

She was born and brought up in a middle class Delhi neighborhood after her family moved to the city more than 20 years ago from the northern state of Uttar Pradesh.

Her male friend recorded his statement to a court days after the attack and helped police identify the six accused. He left for his hometown in Uttar Pradesh late on Saturday, missing the woman's funeral, media reported.

SHAME, ANGER IN SLUM


Four of the accused, all in custody, live in the narrow by-lanes of Ravi Das Camp, a slum about 17 km (11 miles) from the woman's home in southwest Delhi. Inside the slum - home to some 1,200 people who eke out a meager living as rickshaw pullers and tea hawkers - many demanded the death penalty for the accused.

"The incident has really shocked all of us. I don't know how I will get my children admitted to a school. The incident has earned a bad name to this place," said Pooja Kumari, a neighbor of one of the accused.

Girija Shankar, a student, said: "Our heads hang in shame because of the brutal act of these men. They must reap what they have sown."

The house of one of the accused was locked, with neighbors saying his family had left the city to escape the shame and anger. Meena, a 45-year-old neighbor, said she had wanted to join the protests that followed the rape, but was too scared.

"You never know when a mob may attack this slum and attack our houses. But we want to say we're as angry as the entire nation. We want them to be hanged," she said.

Two of the six alleged assailants come from outside Delhi, according to police. One is married with children and was arrested in his native village in Bihar state and the other, a juvenile, is a runaway from a broken home in Uttar Pradesh.

In India, murder is punishable by death by hanging, except in the case of offenders aged below 18.

(Additional reporting by Suchitra Mohanty and Nita Bhalla; Editing by Mark Bendeich and Ian Geoghegan)[/quote]
I don't understand why some on this board are defending how women are treated in India and attacking us for speaking out on behalf of the women. I can't believe how cavalier the authorities were about the brutality this women went through. I guess they think like Start da game who blamed her for being out.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 03:37 AM   #153
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

The details are gruesome. Hard to read
What does this mean?
What lesson are they trying to teach her?
Quote:
The attackers then beat him with a metal rod, knocking him unconscious, before turning on the woman who had tried to come to his defense.
Police say the men admitted after their arrest to torturing and raping the student "to teach her a lesson".
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 05:09 AM   #154
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykarma View Post
It wouldn't matter where this happened I think the outrage would be the same but find the rest of your post puzzling. The fact that the protest are happening shows that your countrymen do have a long way to go regarding this particular issue with women. As has been previously stated, all countries have their issues and their citizens have had to fight for their civil rights and even after winning those rights it takes a while to change the hearts of those that have been the oppressor.

It's great to see the support that the women are getting from the young men and hope they'll protect them from harm.
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.
When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve. They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis potraying her in a negative light. I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.
Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.
It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 05:16 AM   #155
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle4259174.ece
Two days after the death of the 23-year-old gang-rape victim, Delhi Police on Sunday said it have finalised around 1,000-page charge sheet in connection with the incident and plans to submit it in court on Thursday.
A senior police official said the charge sheet, which is being vetted by legal experts, has cited 30 witnesses in connection with the December 16 incident in which the physiotherapy student was raped and brutally assaulted in a moving bus in South Delhi. The victim died in a Singapore hospital on December 29.
Investigators said they will seek death penalty for the accused in the case.
Six persons wer apprehended in connection with the incident, which evoked widespread outrage and anger and triggered violent protests in India Gate and Raisina Hill.
The charge sheet, to be filed in the Saket court, will detail the role of five men while mentioning that a separate report would be sent to Juvenile Justice Board for the trial of the minor boy allegedly involved in the case, the official said.
The charge sheet gives details about the sequence of events, the treatment, shifting of the patient to a Singapore hospital as well as her death, the official said.
Police have invoked rape, murder and other charges against the accused.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 09:24 AM   #156
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi View Post
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.
When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve. They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis potraying her in a negative light. I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.
Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.
It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.
Ashi, I've enjoyed your insights in this topic. I understand that you wish to defend your country. I never meant to diss India. I see these protests as a good sign. You can feel proud of everyone who's standing up now, who's demanding change. That's a positive thing.

We had the Dutroux scandal 16 years ago. I too get annoyed when reading on foreign sites that this makes our country a pedophile country. We have no more pedophiles than other countries; But it made the news everywhere because of the huge protests. Because it seems that with a properly functioning police force, some of these girls would have been found alive. But the different levels of police hadn't cooperated, they withheld vital information from one another because they didn't want the others to get the scoop, to get full credit. And as a result, children that could have been saved, died. People were shocked that such a thing could happen here and people were shocked to find out how incompetent the police turned out to be. So they took to the streets. The police has been completely reformed now.

So I understand where you're coming from. India is no more a rape country than other countries. But there are certain things that need to change, the view towards women has to change.
I was surprised to find, even in this thread, the very mentality that your fellow countrywomen are protesting against. When I saw the picture on CNN of women holding up the sign "don't tell your daughters not to go, tell your sons to behave themselves", I immediately want to post it here but someone else had already beaten me to it.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 09:24 AM   #157
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi View Post
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.
When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve. They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis potraying her in a negative light. I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.
Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.

It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.
Hmm. I understand completely.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 03:29 PM   #158
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi View Post

It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.

When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve.

They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis portraying her in a negative light.

I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.

Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.

It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.
Sorry, but whose fault is it that the recent South Asia thread got 41 posts (the last on 16 December) and then fizzled out? As have almost every other (non-US related) regional or national thread here; some like the Singapore chat thread last, but frankly are less about the place than for posters from there just chatting with eachother.

No country gets bashed as widely as the US, and American posters (as tennisbum correctly observed ITT) never tell foreigners to "butt out". And I don't just mean the US political thread, but ones about gun violence, acts of race hatred, and other quite shameful stuff.

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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 04:19 PM   #159
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

First, edit my name out.
Are you going to blame me if I have a life outside of TF and will readily say I'm not an expert on Indian history. If I don't find the topic stimulating I won't comment on it.
And about the beef you have with another poster, why don't you sort it out with that poster rather than alluding to it so often. It is getting old. I don't want to be dragged into it. Period.
What is the % of Americans w.r.t Indians of this board?
I rest my case.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 05:17 PM   #160
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi View Post

Are you going to blame me if I have a life outside of TF and will readily say I'm not an expert on Indian history. If I don't find the topic stimulating I won't comment on it.

And about the beef you have with another poster, why don't you sort it out with that poster rather than alluding to it so often. It is getting old. I don't want to be dragged into it. Period.

What is the % of Americans w.r.t Indians of this board?
I rest my case.
I was referring not to that previous squabble with another Indian poster, but to the insularity on your part (and STG's) that tennisbum79 quite correctly pointed out.

And your point about the ratio of Americans to Indians here is way out of context, as you're using it. The more relevant one is the ratio of US citizens and residents who post in NT to others combined. I dare say that the non-American population is roughly equal to the Americans plus other present US residents.

ITT's about crap that happens IN the USA, there've been a lot of posts by Brits, Frenchies, Germans, Australians, Serbs, etc. etc. And its damn condescending 4U to have no problem with "mere expressions of sympathy" for the unfortunate young woman brutalized in Delhi, but bridle @ deeper analysis.

Like how the backwards elimination of female babies (B4 and even after birth) for a few decades now has inevitably created a shortage of potential romantic partners for young men, some of whom will fulfill their sexual appetites via rape. (Which I'm not defending).

Is India the only place rape happens, of course not. Is police insensitivity and corruption a factor, absolutely. But so is a culture that still treats females in many parts of your country in a manner that's indefensible.

I live in a country where ppl too often use a gun for everything from shooting one's ex-boss or ex-wife and a few co-workers who just happened 2B around, to random students in a school or university, to a young black man one thinks "may" present a clear and present danger.

So threads get started about these killings. And about other ugly behavior, like when a noose is hung from a tree or a cross is burned as an implied threat. Non-Americans express negative opinions, and (again, as tennisbum said) are not to "plz not discuss" the underlying reasons.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 05:49 PM   #161
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

Insularity?In this thread? I'm pretty much open about discussing various aspects of my country within my experience.
You are welcome to have a deeper analyis. Who is stopping you?
Yes, go on and accuse me of saying 'plz don't discuss' when for the record I've been the only Indian poster who has been forthcoming about discussing this tragedy and its aspects.
That is unacceptable to me. You have successfully managed to piss me off, after YOU PM'ed me about this thread.
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Old Jan 1st, 2013, 06:52 PM   #162
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by gentenaire View Post
Ashi, I've enjoyed your insights in this topic. I understand that you wish to defend your country. I never meant to diss India. I see these protests as a good sign. You can feel proud of everyone who's standing up now, who's demanding change. That's a positive thing.

We had the Dutroux scandal 16 years ago. I too get annoyed when reading on foreign sites that this makes our country a pedophile country. We have no more pedophiles than other countries; But it made the news everywhere because of the huge protests. Because it seems that with a properly functioning police force, some of these girls would have been found alive. But the different levels of police hadn't cooperated, they withheld vital information from one another because they didn't want the others to get the scoop, to get full credit. And as a result, children that could have been saved, died. People were shocked that such a thing could happen here and people were shocked to find out how incompetent the police turned out to be. So they took to the streets. The police has been completely reformed now.

So I understand where you're coming from. India is no more a rape country than other countries. But there are certain things that need to change, the view towards women has to change.
I was surprised to find, even in this thread, the very mentality that your fellow countrywomen are protesting against. When I saw the picture on CNN of women holding up the sign "don't tell your daughters not to go, tell your sons to behave themselves", I immediately want to post it here but someone else had already beaten me to it.
Thanks. I'm proud as well.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 01:34 PM   #163
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
This is not helpful.
Pointing finger at the USA does not address the endemic issue of rape in India.
I can undersdand your pride and feel compelled to defend India because you think it is being unfairly ttreated amid this incident, but this pride is misplaced.
It's nothing to do with pointing fingers or my pride. I stated the global reality. Perhaps you should go to FBI website and check the stats or go to UN website and check on rapes committed in countries in terms of per-capita. Indian stats are not high (1.6 per 100,000) when compared to volume of cases in many developed nations. But still over 26,000 (2011) number here is completely unacceptable. Do you want me to quote the US numbers? (it's more than three times).

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
An objective observer can see why there is an outcry on this particular incident
As an objective observer and active participant I *fund* to my capacity per year. Example, old parents NGOs (thrown out by their children) or children (less than 10 years) who are born with Heart defects (pending operations thousands per state) or campaign against Alcohol (this is company's #1 CSR goal) or child education or farmers who are committing suicides because they are broke/bankrupt and/or they can't afford to buy few sacks of seeds! It's one of the reasons why returned to India. There are many problems here in India, of course in many developed countries too. My new initiative for this year is helping a few parents to know what happened to their missing children. Did you know many thousands of girls per year in my state are vanishing? What's happening to them? No one really bothers or cares. Police can't do everything or be there for everyone any given point of time/place. This is IMPOSSIBLE. What could be done?

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
The public has had enough of violence against women and no serious action is taken against the perpetrators. So they are expressing their frustration and anger against the authorities.
I get that. But they don't take any serious action on multiple levels. Mere changing rape laws won't do the job. I mentioned so many reasons in my post, there are many more such as economic disparity, psychological problems etc. There is NO silver bullet this case.

Trust me there are much bigger problems in India compared to this as I mentioned in my post. Example, during the last 20 days or so, almost 100 people dead in India due to harsh winter. What about them? How many years more they should die like pests?

These politicians won't do anything. They are busy protecting their skins/bastions/power/states. Most people are becoming self-centered and selfish or they just can't do anything (out of reach, money etc). They should be working on multiple-parameters in terms of short and long run.

IMO people should take initiatives (since Govts can't do much) at least to limit this problem or negating risk. They should get educated on rights/laws (possible for Urban), take precautions, take nothing for granted or be crazy taking risks, go to self-defense classes etc. Lawyers and NGOs should come forward to help the people. How many are there and how many could really afford to tackle this situation given the magnitude of the risk involved? I see very few doing such things on the ground.

Also, it's very important to realize that crimes can't be stopped as some demand like - these must be stopped. It's impossible be it murder, corruption, greed, rape etc because these are encoded deep in the human DNA. Many don't understand this angle. One could only work on the bad stats and strive to bring them to the lowest possible numbers closer to NULL. That's the right frame of thinking instead of harping on emotional or political crap played out on TV channels.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:07 PM   #164
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Re: India gang rape victim dies

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
The NDTV debate gives all sides, if anyone wants to watch it. I raised it ITT to give another example of what tennisbum said; that issues elsewhere are fair game for Americans, just like crap that happens here is 4U "fur-ners". (And of course to take a whack @ that unnamed poster).

More relevant to this thread, Vikram did a one hour special 8 days ago about the effect this gang rape may have on the laws there: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the...79?vod-related
NDTV is a big bogus and corrupt channel. Their investments are a sham (illegally routed through Mauritius but escaped), their Chief Editor is a big scam (involved in a huge 2G power brokering scandal but got away). Most national channels are either sold out and/or siding with the Govt. This is quite known to many Indians. Point is, there was a much bigger protests against corruption starting from late 2011 to late 2012. Most channels have played down the protests, tarnished the protestors, politicized the cause and what not.

Fundamental big bear problem in any country is Corruption. Again this is not India specific. This a twisted evil which must be brought down to minimum levels. But what media channels did? They slept with the Govt. because most are quite scared of enacting a super strong Jan Lokpal bill.

Had Jan Lakpal bill passed, it would have helped on many parameters such as tackling with Police, Judiciary, Govts, protecting rights, freedom etc on Rape cases. They won't do it. I know this very well.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:19 PM   #165
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

^^solid inputs......like you rightly said, the solution to this problem is far more complex than what is suggested in the media......

like i have been saying from the beginning of this thread, politicians are the biggest scum of the country......particularly the congress which is 10 times worse than any other party in india......problems really start from there......

as for media, i have more respect for two dollar whores than media in india and the world......

i really hope narendra modi takes the throne in 2014......india desperately needs BJP at the moment......only party which is capable of bringing some order again in the country, forget about improvements for time being......
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