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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #31
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by Igorche View Post
I completely agree.
Monica, like Hingis, won when young, carefree and directed and supported by a very close parent. When they matured and the pains of life got in the way they couldn't cope mentally. They were winners when everything was going well.

Serena has proven she can overcome traumas, comeback and be better than before. Winning slams at a very early age is not a sign of overall greatness. It's a burst of prodigious talent. Serena's winning ways has spanned decades, seeing off players who came after her and have since retired! She's beaten all her rivals bar none. There's no comparison really.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #32
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by Venusfan32 View Post
Unless she has an individual super great year at some point, or establishes some dominance of winning streak at one particular major, Maria would need atleast 4 more majors to be put above Venus and Henin, maybe 5. Henins WTA Championship success, Venus Olympic success, Venus and her doubles success, and Marias lack of any dominant period, any remote period of dominance, any dominance of any surface, are enormous holes in comparision to both Henin and Venus. Venus totally dominated grass and is one of the best ever on that surface, even if in her own era Serena who is also one of the best ever is close to her. Venus also was the dominant player for 18 months from mid 2000 to end of 2001. Henin totally dominated clay and is by far best of her era on clay, and on par with Graf and Seles all time, only behind Evert in the Open Era. She also totally dominated 2007 and mid 2003-early 2004, not just on clay, while in general being the dominant player of 2003-2007 with far more consistency and overall success (big wins such a 10 Slams, WTA Championship, or Olympic wins) that period than anyone else. Venus has 4 Olympic Golds and Henin 3 WTA Championships and 3 Year end #1s. Maria with merely a 5th major pales so far compared to this it isnt even funny.
Ain't it something..Sharapova is barely greater than Davenport/Kim...yet her fans have the audacity to open threads questioning Serena's greatness. Priceless.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #33
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

Seles has 9 slams Serena has 15. That's a pretty big gap. Serena has 6 more slams than Seles and counting. Serena isn't finished adding to her slam count everyone agrees she has 3-5 slams left in her realistically maybe more...so that alone makes me say no no no to This question. It is a legitimate question however I agree

Also Seles has no doubles credentials. So in the regard shes cant be compared to serenanwho has many doubles slams to her name, Serena is the better all around player, she has better shots overall and her serve is a lot better than Seles serve too. Her movement is much better always ways, return of serve is one shot I may give to Seles just out of respect for her game and mental toughness also is equal I would say but not greater to Serena. Both are great legends and Seles did so many amazing things given her circumstances but is she better? No.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #34
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by Venusfan32 View Post
These would be the cases for Serena being better than Graf or Navratilova.

Navratilova:

-Way tougher competition as Martinas era (82-86) was a total joke other than an alternately slumping or aging Evert.

-Way more Olympic success despite that Martina was eligible to play in 3 Olympics (1984, 1988, 1992). If she chose not to, that is her problem, Graf chose to play in those same ones for instance and won tons of medals.

-Also being successful in both singles and doubles like Martina.

-Much more longevity as a dominant player. Martina won 15 of her 18 slams and all 9 of her non Wimbledons from 1982-1987. Serena is dominant in 2002, and dominant many years later in 2012.

-Played and won in an era with a greater variety of slam surfaces, slow hard courts in Australia (which Martina would have sucked royally on), clay, grass, and fast hard courts in New York. Actually Martina did get to play on the slow hard courts of Australia. Got killed by 35 year old Evert the first time, lost to Sukova in the quarters the next, and never showed up again, so moreso than Navratilova in fact Serena can win on all surface, even on clay at Roland Garros she has been Champion.



Graf:

-Benefited from Seles stabbing.

-Like Navratilova excelled in weak era. The toughest period of her era was 1991-1992 which wasnt even her era but Seles it turned out, and I guess 1989 was pretty good too, so she was dominant one year with good competition only.

-We see when she played Serena when neither was in their prime in 1999, but both good enough to win slams, she had enormous problems with Serena power game.

-Did not excel in doubles like Serena and Navratilova did, and barely even played it.

-Did not play and excel into her 30s like Serena did, in fact the last 3 years of her career aged 27 to 29 won only 1 major.


As for Seles and her weaks at #1 over a whole year of those weeks are a gift. She never should have spent a moment of August 1995-October 1996 ranked #1 but due to her ridiculous comeback policies put in place she was given the co-#1 with Graf simply for playing, when her play never merited time at #1, and by late 1996 looked like a joke and embarassment for the WTA. OK so we can say with her ranking points she was a lock to be #1 for atleast 3 more months had she not been stabbed, so lets say a year rather than a year plus worth of gift time at #1, anything more is speculatory, but that still takes her below Serena who earned all her weeks at #1 for real, not gifted them by some special rule while clearly not being on the level of the real #1 at the time.
I'm sorry and Serena did not excel in a weak era? She, like Graf and Navratilova with their respective minions, is lightyears away from Azarenka, Safina, Ivanovic, Radwanska, Zvonareva, Wozniacki, etc. who have been the rivals she's had to beat at the finals she's played. On the other hand she didn't do so well when playing old rivals from the era in which the competition was better (like Clijsters). Graf definitely benefitted from the stabbing of Seles but Navratilova still had Chris Evert, Mandlikova, and Graf herself. The closest rival H2H-wise Serena's had in the last 4 years in which she's won 6 or 7 Slams is Sam Stosur, who doesn't exactly have a similar career to Serena like Navratilova and Evert did.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #35
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by Venusfan32 View Post
Is she greater than them. Davenport has over 50 career titles, and Serena haters seems to think small tournament wins are so important so why not here too. Maria has only half that, and will probably never approach that final number. Davenport at her peak won 3 of 6 majors, and faced way tougher competition than Maria did. As for Kim not even at her peak, but her peakiest period of the era that is mostly Marias peak time, won 2 U.S Opens, Australian Open, WTA Championships, and Miami all in an 18 month span, so dominated the field Maria is vulturing, and also was the best player of 2005 with a U.S Open title and 7 tournament wins. Kim has 2 ˙ears as probably best player of WTA, or atleast best year, while Maria has none. Kim has won 3 WTA Championships to only 1 for Maria, and has many more career titles too.

I mean..need we say more?
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #36
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
I mean..need we say more?
Not at all.

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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #37
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by Venusfan32 View Post
Is she greater than them. Davenport has over 50 career titles, and Serena haters seems to think small tournament wins are so important so why not here too. Maria has only half that, and will probably never approach that final number. Davenport at her peak won 3 of 6 majors, and faced way tougher competition than Maria did. As for Kim not even at her peak, but her peakiest period of the era that is mostly Marias peak time, won 2 U.S Opens, Australian Open, WTA Championships, and Miami all in an 18 month span, so dominated the field Maria is vulturing, and also was the best player of 2005 with a U.S Open title and 7 tournament wins. Kim has 2 ˙ears as probably best player of WTA, or atleast best year, while Maria has none. Kim has won 3 WTA Championships to only 1 for Maria, and has many more career titles too.


Quote:
Jon Wertheim ‏@jon_wertheim
What do seles, davenport, hingis, venus, henin and clijsters have in common? None won the career grand slam. Just sayin...?

Lindsay Davenport : @jon_wertheim "no question it elevates her to a whole different level if she wins..."
"Just incredible what Maria accomplished these last two weeks. No way anyone but herself and her team thought this was possible 3+ years ago."
"I believe winning a career grand slam puts her at a higher level in history books even though (so far) she's 'only' won 4 slams."
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PS: one thread is about Seles, the other about Serena and potential 18 Slams ....... but with bandabou and some other trolls both threads are about their secret love called Masha
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #38
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
if Sharapova hadn't injured her shoulder she might have had equal number of Slams with Justine and Venus by today....

Please, ain't nobody got time for that.

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
post of the thread.

And to answer the question at hand, no.... no.

QTF
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #39
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
Quote:
Jon Wertheim ‏@jon_wertheim
What do seles, davenport, hingis, venus, henin and clijsters have in common? None won the career grand slam. Just sayin...?

Lindsay Davenport : @jon_wertheim "no question it elevates her to a whole different level if she wins..."
"Just incredible what Maria accomplished these last two weeks. No way anyone but herself and her team thought this was possible 3+ years ago."
"I believe winning a career grand slam puts her at a higher level in history books even though (so far) she's 'only' won 4 slams."
Pfft Lindsey's just trying to be nice. 4 slams does not even put her CLOSE to the greats. Her consistency is also another factor which gives her the disadvantage.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:04 PM   #40
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #41
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

Why mention Serena? There's a case for Monica to be the greatest over everyone. She will always have an asterisk, unfortunately.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #42
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.
Best thing you've said today.

She's just a brand, nothing more.
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #43
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by Sammo View Post
I'm sorry and Serena did not excel in a weak era? She, like Graf and Navratilova with their respective minions, is lightyears away from Azarenka, Safina, Ivanovic, Radwanska, Zvonareva, Wozniacki, etc. who have been the rivals she's had to beat at the finals she's played. On the other hand she didn't do so well when playing old rivals from the era in which the competition was better (like Clijsters). Graf definitely benefitted from the stabbing of Seles but Navratilova still had Chris Evert, Mandlikova, and Graf herself. The closest rival H2H-wise Serena's had in the last 4 years in which she's won 6 or 7 Slams is Sam Stosur, who doesn't exactly have a similar career to Serena like Navratilova and Evert did.
Wozniacki, Ivanovic in finals? You're confusing her with Masha..
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #44
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.

where is the list of her masters?

you'd better check your fave's H2H vs other players..... If'm not mistaken she has losing h2h to Caro, Vera, Dinara , Dementieva, Kuzzy, Petra etc
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Old Dec 24th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #45
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Re: Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

There is a case to argue in favor of Monica Seles, (if someone would like to analyze it with as little bias as possible I'd love to hear it)

I get where the OP is coming from however. I think that people are/can argue that Serena>Graf mostly because in terms of achievements Serena has credentials that Seles does not. (Career Grand Slam is a huge one) If we are talking pure number of slams Serena will never win against Graf, Evert, or Navratilova at the moment but she will be the immediate name following all of those champions if she retired tomorrow. Seles will also be talked about among the GOATs and looking at her trajectory before the stabbing it is hard not to leave her out of the discussion.
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