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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #106
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by chuvack View Post
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.


I agree with this.

It's crazy to use percentages to say that 1 in 10 men are gay so 10% of all male tennis players must be gay. It figures that if more than 95% of men who are fans of the eurovision song contest are gay ,so in other walks of life it might be less than 0.1% .

But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #107
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by markdelaney View Post

But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?
Well, for the same reason people are interested in what the players do in their private time etc... everybody's looking to relate to their faves in some form or another.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #108
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by chuvack View Post
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.
Given that half this board is gay males, I think that puts the notion that gay men are inclined away from the sports at rest.

What is true is that the macho heterosexist culture of professional sport makes it difficult for gay men who are into sports to pursue sports as a career and maintain their sanity (and most learned this probably via the high school gym culture), and those who do do not choose to come out. I think it's also more likely for gay men to pursue individual sports rather than team sports for a similar reason.

Besides your reasoning is circular, since your "evidence" for gay men not liking sports is presumably that there are not many out gay men in professional sports. I can only guess what other arguments you might make about race and gender, without considering socio-historical factors.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #109
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Given that half this board is gay males, I think that puts the notion that gay men are inclined away from the sports at rest.

What is true is that the macho heterosexist culture of professional sport makes it difficult for gay men who are into sports to pursue sports as a career and maintain their sanity (and most learned this probably via the high school gym culture), and those who do do not choose to come out. I think it's also more likely for gay men to pursue individual sports rather than team sports for a similar reason.

Besides your reasoning is circular, since your "evidence" for gay men not liking sports is presumably that there are not many out gay men in professional sports. I can only guess what other arguments you might make about race and gender, without considering socio-historical factors.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 10:22 PM   #110
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by markdelaney View Post
I agree with this.

It's crazy to use percentages to say that 1 in 10 men are gay so 10% of all male tennis players must be gay. It figures that if more than 95% of men who are fans of the eurovision song contest are gay ,so in other walks of life it might be less than 0.1% .

But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?
The point is it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE that there are no gays in the ATP and WTA top 100. These gay tennis pros exist it is a fact of life.

You may not care but people DO CARE. And why shouldn't we? The public seems to care about the love lives of the heterosexual tennis players, so why should the gay tennis players live in silence and shame? The media focus the cameras during tennis matches on the wives and the girlfriends or boyfriends of the straight tennis players. Why can't the gay tennis pros get the same respect and courtesy? How many times have you watched a tennis match and the media talk about the spouse or partner of the heterosexual tennis player. Straight privilege is all over the place that it becomes second nature people don't notice it.


Your comment is a generalization to be honest. The reason lesbians have it easier than gay men to come out is heterosexual men are more fearful of gay men than lesbians. Also, women in general not all women but women are more likely to be open minded about homosexuality than heterosexual men. So, it is easier for a lesbian tennis pro to come out that's why the general public KNOWS about the lesbian tennis champions.

However, since men's tennis players although an invidiual sport are around heterosexual men these straight men KEEP the gay men in the closet and in check. The homophobia in men's sports is extreme the heterosexual men are so fearful of gay men and make the climate in the locker room so tough that a lot of gay male athletes choose to remain in the closet. It would take a very courageous, and a very brave gay male athlete to come out like the Puerto Rican boxer Orlando Cruz. Crus is ranked number 4 in the world in the featherweight division. Cruz got a lot of hate on the internet but he's gotten mostly positive support from boxing fans and the media after coming out. Many people were surprised that a gay man can succeed in boxing which is a very macho sport.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #111
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

Why is it necessary to tell the world that one is gay/lesbian? Just be and live your life.

I just find it beyond ridiculous the constant speculations or supposedly gay-dar readings that are nothing more that wishful thinking. People act more like being gay/lesbian is the latest fashion or in thing rather than a sexual preference (for lack of better words).

If that's what people are so be it but it shouldn't matter one way or the other, just as it doesn't matter that I'm straight.

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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 06:55 AM   #112
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Amelie Mauresmo did not lose any endorsements when she came out in fact she is a hero in France for being the first French woman since the 1920s to be Wimbledon champion. Mauresmo is adored in France and respected by the French people. Yes, money or the fear of losing endosements could be a reason top players remain in the closet. But if the media found out, wouldn't that hurt a company that would strip a player of endosement money by coming out? I have to believe in the year 2012, a company that would cut ties with an openly gay player would get bad press.

It does seem like everything is going in reverse on the WTA. Notice the recent WTA championships and all the top 8 players getting their makeup done, wearing gowns ect. Back in the 1990s, at the WTA championships I don't think they did that. This whole glam thing is new, to indicate to the audience that these fit female tennis players are still feminine and still can present a heterosexual image to male consumers. I find it odd that the WTA is trying to appeal to heterosexual men and not appeal to straight women or the gay community who support women's tennis.

Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.

And it makes me wonder, why it is so easy to identify the lesbian tennis players yet on the ATP Tour the general public is lead to believe all the top guys are heterosexual and have model type girlfriends. There's got to be one guy in the top 20 who is gay or bisexual.
Actually I think Amwlie got so famous because of that!
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 07:35 AM   #113
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
There are inevitably going to be a huge number of ATP and WTA gays. It's naive however to not understand what the hesitations and restrictions are when it comes to professional sportsmen and women 'coming out'.

I mean look how shallow and vapid the media culture is over the WTA these days regarding grunting. If Female tennis players are scrutinised relentlessly over such irrelevant and trivial things as that, there is already a disincentive for WTA pro's to illuminate their private lives, especially controversial subject matters such as their sexuality, into the public domain. I don't think the press is that accepting at all. Look how they distorted Mauresmo's coming out.

For male ATP players, it'd be even worse. We live in a very pro-masculine society especially when it comes to spot, where gay men are often seen as disassociated from sports. They are often perceived as effeminate, and ultimately alien to these masculine grand narratives we see in sports specifically. I mean could you imagine if a top 5 ATP player came out as gay? The ATP that brands their players as warriors, promoting this robust, dominant image of masculinity, and then suddenly having to reconcile with someone not adhering to these ideals. Imagine the types of repercussions on the player, simply for addressing his own sexuality publicly.

It doesn't just happen in sport either, but it's the most glaring and disturbing example of self-suppression of sexuality, purely because the culture of sport is so crude and brazen with stereotype.
I understand what you are saying you make a cogent argument but I also think it is incredibly sad. If NOBODY does nothing then NOTHING will change. Look at the African American civil rights movement or the feminist movement in America if people like Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Gloria Steinem, Alice Walker, Betty Fredian, said NOTHING or DID NOTHING where would we be?

If lesbians tennis champions like Martina Navratilova or Billie Jean King did NOTHING where would women in pro tennis be? King started the WTA and now it is the most successful female sport on the planet and the highest profile. If feminists and civil rights activists did NOTHING we would be in a terrible place.


Someone has to take a stand and BE a brave pioneers on the ATP TOUR. Because if nobody does NOTHING it means the status quo reins supreme. I honestly think the gay guys on the ATP TOUR are afraid of the unknown. Nobody has come out in men's tennis so the silence and shame just continues.

Also I think if a high profile gay ATP player came out he would have more opportunities to make MORE MONEY he would get MORE PUBLICITY and FAME.

Look at Frank Ocean he was underground and now the guy has a hit album and six Grammy nominations. Frank Ocean is now a huge star because he came out in hip hop.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 07:48 AM   #114
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by bjurra View Post
Because it seems highly unlikely that anyone in the top 20 is gay.

1. Most of them have girlfriends or wives. 50 years ago, gay men might have gone through the trouble to have an official female partner in order to submit to the norms of society. In 2012, gay men might be quiet about it but I seriously doubt they arrange a fake relationship, unless they are a Hollywood actor or an American politician.

2. If 5% of all males are gay, that means that statistically 1 player in the top 20 is gay. But that is only if top 20 players are an average of the population (which they are not) and if gay men are as inclined to elite sport as the average male (which they are not).
There is currently one male tennis pro ranked in the top 20 who I believe for certain is not heterosexual he is either gay or bisexual. I won't name the guy's name but according to the articles I have read this male tennis champion's so called girlfriend is just his beard. The girlfriend is actually a family friend and she sometimes shows up to his grand slam semifinals or finals but other than that she's rarely seen. She occasionally shows up to other ATP events. The family of this ATP champion created the girlfriend to give this guy a heterosexual image to hide his homosexuality. The girlfriend was created because the family feared if this guy did come out tennis fans would not accept him being gay or bi.

The problem I have with your answer is since gay male athletes encounter so much prejudice and homophobia there is probably internal pressure at the top of men's tennis for a gay male to stay in the closet. At the highest level I think the PR teams and managers have so much power they keep these guys in the closet.

But remember players ranked in the top 20 are very high profile these guys got PR teams and publicists that craft a heterosexual image for them. Just because a man has a girlfriend and wife does not mean he isn't gay or bisexual.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:51 AM   #115
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by FoxyliciousKhat View Post
Why is it necessary to tell the world that one is gay/lesbian? Just be and live your life.

I just find it beyond ridiculous the constant speculations or supposedly gay-dar readings that are nothing more that wishful thinking. People act more like being gay/lesbian is the latest fashion or in thing rather than a sexual preference (for lack of better words).

If that's what people are so be it but it should matter one way or the other, just as it doesn't matter that I'm straight.

Foxy
That's my thoughts too...what's with the obsession that somebody HAS to come out?!

Isn't anybody's business really. As long as the person isn't living a double-life, then..no biggie.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #116
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

It is because being Lesbian was never really socially oppressed but more socially encourage, even in old times woman to woman sexual encounters are found attractive and flaunted as man to man relations are found sick and disgusting. So there is no real comparison. Being Lesbian is nothing like being gay.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #117
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
There is currently one male tennis pro ranked in the top 20 who I believe for certain is not heterosexual he is either gay or bisexual. I won't name the guy's name but according to the articles I have read this male tennis champion's so called girlfriend is just his beard. The girlfriend is actually a family friend and she sometimes shows up to his grand slam semifinals or finals but other than that she's rarely seen. She occasionally shows up to other ATP events. The family of this ATP champion created the girlfriend to give this guy a heterosexual image to hide his homosexuality. The girlfriend was created because the family feared if this guy did come out tennis fans would not accept him being gay or bi.

The problem I have with your answer is since gay male athletes encounter so much prejudice and homophobia there is probably internal pressure at the top of men's tennis for a gay male to stay in the closet. At the highest level I think the PR teams and managers have so much power they keep these guys in the closet.

But remember players ranked in the top 20 are very high profile these guys got PR teams and publicists that craft a heterosexual image for them. Just because a man has a girlfriend and wife does not mean he isn't gay or bisexual.
LOL you said grand slam semis or finals, there is only 4 people that you can put an or to that is Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 05:54 PM   #118
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
The point is it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE that there are no gays in the ATP and WTA top 100. These gay tennis pros exist it is a fact of life.
No it isn't. It's highly unlikely, but don't confuse that with it being impossible. For one thing 100 people is a very small sample size, and five people (the number of homosexuals you'd expect to find just by picking 100 people out of the world population at random) is not a large number. The difference between there being five homosexuals and none is unlikely to be statistically significant.

Case in point, I know a consultant pharmacist who has never seen a side effect that (in theory) affects 5% (or more) of people taking the drug despite treating more than 100 people with it.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #119
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Jimmie48 View Post
Well, for the same reason people are interested in what the players do in their private time etc... everybody's looking to relate to their faves in some form or another.
But we are not talking about private. I know a lot of people equate announce that someone is gay with sex, but being gay is a sexual orientation, nothing more. A player who tells he is gay is not giving more information about his private life than a straight one saying he is straight.
I know the repercusions are not the same, one is news and the other not, but this is not about privacy.

And of course there's the sense that you will be "the gay player", and i think that's something that players will want to avoid, because, yes, he will be gay, and he will be a player, but one thing has nothing to do with the other. Of course if the guy is a top player and won GS and is high on the ranking that things will be different.

Sooner or later someone will come out (and i hope it will be because he wants, and not because he is outed or be catched in a scandal), and if nothing happen, and he can play without extra pressure, maybe people will be more open about it.

Some people say, i don't care about it, but the truth is everybody knows who is Federer's wife or Nadal's girlfriend, and i never hear someone complaining that they talk too much about their private life.
Some people wouldn't like for sure, but most people will get used to it in no time. And if the guy is good on court and smart enough to give good interviews i'm pretty sure the atp will be very happy after the coming out.
Tennis is a sport with a lot of gay fans, so i don't think that will be a problem. Maybe other players would be, because some of them came from very conservative countries, but they just get used to it, because if they react bad, they will get a good backlash.

I think in some countries the new generations are a lot more open, so it's a matter of time
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #120
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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There is currently one male tennis pro ranked in the top 20 who I believe for certain is not heterosexual he is either gay or bisexual. I won't name the guy's name ....
.... because uninformed speculation about 20 guys is SOOOOO much more fun that uninformed speculation about just one.
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