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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #76
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by madmax View Post
If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of
Trust me, that is another misconception. Talking about social media in general, it actually works in the opposite way as it gives famous people a powerful tool to control what you know about them.

I sometimes work with people who have rather large follower bases on social media and most of them are very very aware how every word they say there multiplies. Smart people can actually use social media to their advantage to have a degree of control over how they`re being viewed, every time some Hollywood-bimbo "accidentally" tweets something usually means that it's on purpose and to draw attention to them. If you think that you know everything about someone just because they have a Twitter or Facebook account you`re fooling yourself.

By your logic, nobody in today's world can be in the closet anymore since we all use social media. That's of course nonsense, there's tens of thousands of famous people around the world who aren't out for one reason or another.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #77
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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I call BS on so much of this. First of all, the likelihood of you being out/anyone knowing obviously varies from country to country. There would be every chance for a player from China being gay and no one knowing it. Even in the US there are still some celebrities who came out who nobody knew were LGBT before they did. Secondly, don't pass off 5% as if it's some fact. A great many studies put it higher, and it's just impossible to measure accurately as long as we live in an age that discourages people from being open about their sexuality.
you are right - I don't know the exact numbers
just like you can't be sure about any guy in TOP 50 or even TOP 100 being gay. So what do you call this "witch hunt" then? A desperate attempt of identifying with some pro athlete? Why would any gay person even need that? All it tells is that you guys are incredibly insecure when it comes to sexuality matters and need all kinds of confirmation from some obscure sportspeople to make you feel better.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #78
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

I think it's interesting because for nearly 100 years there is Bill Tilden (I dont know if he was offically out or just that "old hollywood" every one knew kind of thing) and a player ranked in the 300s openly gay. For the last 80+ years, even after retirement, being out in the top 100 it's just nonexistent. I find it odd since there have been football and baseball players that have come out after retirement. I mean to each their own it's more fascinating than anything.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 03:09 AM   #79
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

Yeah why do people always make the conclusion there are no gay men in the top 20 of the ATP Tour? I believe somebody I don't know who there has to be at least two to four guys who are gay or bisexual in the ATP top 50. And the gay guy that does come out PLEASE be a higher ranked player. Nothing is more annoying than reading an interview of someone who is ranked 300, and comes out and is on the challenger circiut and not a star. In order for the public to accept gay and lesbian tennis stars it would help if the player was a higher ranked player not a lower ranked player.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 04:21 AM   #80
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.
Have some sympathy. You know very well there is one drumbeating homophobe standing in her way who has made it very clear she thinks that lesbians have ruined the WTA tour. And plus she is a private person, so I don't see why she should even address.

As for this whole topic, I think that players who are closeted are afraid to come out because they'll feel like a walking target and I don't think the pressure will be easy to deal with. Sport is way different to entertainment. You have enough pressure trying to win matches but to be seen as 'the gay one', which let's face it... that's the perception that they will get if they do come out. I don't understand where people think all these new endorsements will come from? They certainly won't come from big corporations in socially conservative countries.

Jan Michael Gambill was always an outlier to me. He openly confessed to being a fan of Cher and Reba McEntire back in the day and as sad and silly as it sounds to profile him based on this, I remember asking people about this back in the early 2000s on a fansite of his and noone seemed bothered by it. It was this aura of "He's probably gay... so what?". I don't know if it was a product of the time back then, how low-key and non-effective the internet was with the small chatroom and dial up internet... but it was so refreshing in hindsight. Now fast forward to nowadays where everything would go viral and be over analysed to death. You would be too scared about the risk of loss, whether social or financial.

Truly think about it. If it was a WTA player, she'd probably be okay with the odd comment here and there from Maggie but she would have role models in Martina, BJK and Amelie and the fact that straight girls are just more open-minded. But if it was an ATP player. Noone. Just one dead guy who was branded a pedophile because of the time. Verbal lashing after verbal lashing in the lockerroom. Made the butt of jokes. Snide comments. Janko 'Mauresmo is a pervert' Tipsarevic on his case. Who knows. That's just the lads lad type of atmosphere.

Easier said then done.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 04:34 AM   #81
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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I'm pretty sure people would be wrong in a lot of instances. People always go for stereotypes and pretend they know stuff.. "she has short hair and looks a bit masculine, she must be a lesbian".

That does not always have to be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's feminine lesbian players out there absolutely nobody would suspect. If you think you can tell by just looking at them you`re fooling yourself, people aren't walking stereotypes.
This.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 05:25 AM   #82
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Yeah why do people always make the conclusion there are no gay men in the top 20 of the ATP Tour? I believe somebody I don't know who there has to be at least two to four guys who are gay or bisexual in the ATP top 50. And the gay guy that does come out PLEASE be a higher ranked player. Nothing is more annoying than reading an interview of someone who is ranked 300, and comes out and is on the challenger circiut and not a star. In order for the public to accept gay and lesbian tennis stars it would help if the player was a higher ranked player not a lower ranked player.
HOW IDIOTIC - so it's pointless and unhelpful for someone ranked 300 in the world to do come out of the closet with lukewarm media interest.... Every person that chooses to come out is doing a service to LGBTs in driving acceptance, some may have bigger impacts, but your attitude is basically saying the only ones that should/matter in coming out are stars.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #83
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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HOW IDIOTIC - so it's pointless and unhelpful for someone ranked 300 in the world to do come out of the closet with lukewarm media interest.... Every person that chooses to come out is doing a service to LGBTs in driving acceptance, some may have bigger impacts, but your attitude is basically saying the only ones that should/matter in coming out are stars.
Do you live in the real world? Yes, I am saying that a tennis star coming out would have MORE social value and importance than some NOBODY ranked 300 in the world. A player ranked 300 in the world is a player who has proven he or she cannot compete with THE BEST. A 300 ranked player is so far from the real action at the grand slams and regular ATP and WTA events. A player ranked 300 is too low ranked to even qualify for the grand slams or masters events.

We lived in a celebrity obsessed culture whether you like it or not. In the real world, people who are SUCCESSFUL in professional sport command MORE media attention. I think you know this. If a top 10 or top 20 ATP Pro came out of the closet he would get tremendous media attention. Even a guy ranked in the top 50 could make a difference. But a guy or lady ranked 300 in the world sorry that's somebody who is NOT ONE OF THE BEST.

It would shatter a lot of stereotypes if a top ATP tennis pro ranked in the top 20 or top 50 came out he would prove a gay man can succeed at the highest level in pro tennis. Same thing for a lesbian tennis pro, there is currently one lesbian grand slam champion in the top 10 but she doesn't want to come out of the closet. IF this lady did come out I think she could make a world of difference for gay rights but she choses to be a coward and chooses to not come out.

Your attitude sounds rather naive and simplistic if you think the world is going to care about some NOBODY ranked 300 coming out. Celebrity status trumps everything,the media aren't going to care about some low ranked player ranked 300 in the world ocming out. A higher profile tennis pro would get more media attention, more publicity and really would make a difference for gays in sports. In order to get respect a gay or lesbian tennis player would have to be HIGHER RANKED.


It would prove that gays and lesbians can compete at the HIGHEST LEVEL of sport. Why do you think Martina and Billie Jean King or Amelie Mauresmo command so much respect as lesbian tennis pioneers? These women proved that as lesbians they can also be great TENNIS CHAMPIONS. And that matters A LOT.


A player ranked 300 is someone who isn't that good of a tennis player and if you think that's not PC to say too bad.
To be a good tennis pro is someone ranked in the top 100 because that's the benchmark from being a decent solid pro to the journeyman and women on the challenger circuit.

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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 07:22 AM   #84
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Have some sympathy. You know very well there is one drumbeating homophobe standing in her way who has made it very clear she thinks that lesbians have ruined the WTA tour. And plus she is a private person, so I don't see why she should even address.

As for this whole topic, I think that players who are closeted are afraid to come out because they'll feel like a walking target and I don't think the pressure will be easy to deal with. Sport is way different to entertainment. You have enough pressure trying to win matches but to be seen as 'the gay one', which let's face it... that's the perception that they will get if they do come out. I don't understand where people think all these new endorsements will come from? They certainly won't come from big corporations in socially conservative countries.

Jan Michael Gambill was always an outlier to me. He openly confessed to being a fan of Cher and Reba McEntire back in the day and as sad and silly as it sounds to profile him based on this, I remember asking people about this back in the early 2000s on a fansite of his and noone seemed bothered by it. It was this aura of "He's probably gay... so what?". I don't know if it was a product of the time back then, how low-key and non-effective the internet was with the small chatroom and dial up internet... but it was so refreshing in hindsight. Now fast forward to nowadays where everything would go viral and be over analysed to death. You would be too scared about the risk of loss, whether social or financial.

Truly think about it. If it was a WTA player, she'd probably be okay with the odd comment here and there from Maggie but she would have role models in Martina, BJK and Amelie and the fact that straight girls are just more open-minded. But if it was an ATP player. Noone. Just one dead guy who was branded a pedophile because of the time. Verbal lashing after verbal lashing in the lockerroom. Made the butt of jokes. Snide comments. Janko 'Mauresmo is a pervert' Tipsarevic on his case. Who knows. That's just the lads lad type of atmosphere.

Easier said then done.
But, it has been done, equality doesn't happen overnight I agree. But if things are going to get better each generation has to make the effort and take that step forward. Amelie Mauresmo was able to come out because of Martina Navratilova and Billie Jean King.

If things are going to get better then someone needs to take a stand. Amelie Mauresmo came out at the tender age of 19 in 1999 before she was a star. Mauresmo did a lot of good for lesbians in women's tennis and had the respect of her peers. Mauresmo never lost any of her endosements.

Someone needs to be courageous, and not be a coward. For instance, a particular top 10 lesbian WTA player has a decent personality yet she seems a bit timid I feel. She's been attacked by her fellow female tennis players in the press yet refuses to address the issue head on she chooses to circumvent it which is sad. This lady's peers clearly have made homophobic comments in relation to her sexuality in the press yet instead of being brave and taking on the homophobes she doesn't.

There is homophobia in women's tennis still and I think if this top 10 lesbian tennis pro actually addressed head on the bad treatment she received she would make a lot of progress for LGBT people in tennis.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #85
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

What's your point?

Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

or

Is the WTA creating a heterosexual image?
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #86
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

To answer the thread title...

WTA -> Lesbians -> prejudice: strong

ATP -> Gays -> prejudice: weak

It's pretty much the opposite in show business. Big advantage for gays. But when it comes to sport, it might be difficult to get respect though I think it's time to have a gay sport star!
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #87
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Why is it taboo on this board to discuss sexuality? Being gay is not a bad thing and being gay more than just having sex just like being straight is more than having sex. When the media focus on heterosexual tennis players getting married to a pro NHL player such as Elena Dementieva nobody says anything.

When straight tennis players like Kim Clijsters gets married has a baby the press can't stop gushing about her amazing comeback to win 3 grand slam singles titles.

However, nobody also says anything when the WTA tour creates this campaign where the female tennis players have to dress up and try to look as feminine as possible. Seems like to me the WTA is actually trying to push a heterosexual image to the general public which isn't a bad thing. However, it does seem like the WTA is trying to sell female sexuality to attain more media attention and public support. But the WTA only places emphasis on maintaining a heterosexual image I think lesbians are discouraged to come out in women's tennis now.

In the past, some of the greatest female tennis players to every play the game are lesbian. Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Amelie Mauresmo broke down barriers by being out and proud. All three of these women are Wimbledon champions.

For millions of gay people, we look at Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King and Amelie Mauresmo with pride because they lived their lives on their own terms. Mauresmo didn't lose any endorsements when she came out either.

I can't help but wish the ATP Tour had the same kind of thing. Nobody has come out in men's tennis since Von Cramm and Bill Tilden in the 1920s and 1930s.

Since pro tennis is an individual sport one would think a gay male tennis player would not have any barriers to come out. He doesn't answer to team mates because he's not on a team he's his own man.

Tennis fans know who most of the lesbian tennis stars are yet nobody can name a current top male tennis player who is gay. Why is that?
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #88
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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This is simply about money. You average player, a non-star, still has shoe deals and racket deals and deals to give off season clinics. And homophobia can adversely affect their ability to get those things. So when you start rumors so-and-s0 is gay, you don't know how their parents, their church, their others employers or their relatives may feel about that. They player who want to make announcements about it, have done so. The players who just live their lives out of the closet, have no doubt been asked about it, have answered, and it's part of the public record.
No shoe or racquet manufacturer would stop sponsering a player because he/she comes out of the closet. That would be PR suicide.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 10:39 AM   #89
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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To answer the thread title...

WTA -> Lesbians -> prejudice: strong

ATP -> Gays -> prejudice: weak
But there are hardly any openly gay WTA players...
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #90
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Yeah why do people always make the conclusion there are no gay men in the top 20 of the ATP Tour? I believe somebody I don't know who there has to be at least two to four guys who are gay or bisexual in the ATP top 50. And the gay guy that does come out PLEASE be a higher ranked player. Nothing is more annoying than reading an interview of someone who is ranked 300, and comes out and is on the challenger circiut and not a star. In order for the public to accept gay and lesbian tennis stars it would help if the player was a higher ranked player not a lower ranked player.
Because it seems highly unlikely that anyone in the top 20 is gay.

1. Most of them have girlfriends or wives. 50 years ago, gay men might have gone through the trouble to have an official female partner in order to submit to the norms of society. In 2012, gay men might be quiet about it but I seriously doubt they arrange a fake relationship, unless they are a Hollywood actor or an American politician.

2. If 5% of all males are gay, that means that statistically 1 player in the top 20 is gay. But that is only if top 20 players are an average of the population (which they are not) and if gay men are as inclined to elite sport as the average male (which they are not).
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