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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:03 AM   #181
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Peak Vinci:

Did you not read the thread title?
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:15 AM   #182
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
No.
Which ones has she played better in? The match against Ivanovic at the USO07 is the only one which can even compete.
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:16 AM   #183
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Which ones has she played better in? The match against Ivanovic at the USO07 is the only one which can even compete.
USO 08 QF against Serena
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #184
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Which ones has she played better in? The match against Ivanovic at the USO07 is the only one which can even compete.
Well if you think she played well in '09 and '10, then that's just absurd. She played better against Jankovic in '07 for a start.

'09 was Venus as a borderline cripple the whole tournament, and '10 was one of her most outrageous fuck-ups in a big match. '07 was a very high quality encounter, and that was a match she played well in. As was '05 for the most part. Her level of shot-making and athleticism was outstanding, until an unfortunate third set capitulation.
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #185
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by cswab22 View Post
USO 08 QF against Serena
Venus played well in that match to be sure, but her level was quite erratic compared to her very best. She was consistently better in the USO05 against Kim / USO07 against Justine / USO10 against Kim, imo. I mean, Serena didn't even have to produce her best tennis of just that TOURNAMENT to get by her (she served and struck the ball better in the final).

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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:25 AM   #186
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
Well if you think she played well in '09 and '10, then that's just absurd. She played better against Jankovic in '07 for a start.

'09 was Venus as a borderline cripple the whole tournament, and '10 was one of her most outrageous fuck-ups in a big match. '07 was a very high quality encounter, and that was a match she played well in. As was '05 for the most part. Her level of shot-making and athleticism was outstanding, until an unfortunate third set capitulation.
Venus's W-UE differential was about -20 or something in that match, iirc.

I don't think her match against Kim in '09 was particularly great, but their '10 match was definitely as well as she's played away from grass post-2003. Her ballstriking was unbelievably crisp, and it was one of those rare matches where her defence was an asset. Her so-called "choke" has also been overstated -- apart from those 2 DFs in the 2nd-set tiebreak (and, let's face it, how many big matches has Venus actually had where she hasn't thrown in some DFs at crucial times), it's not like she collapsed in a mountain of unforced errors at all.
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:30 AM   #187
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Venus's W-UE differential was about -20 or something in that match, iirc.

I don't think her match against Kim in '09 was particularly great, but their '10 match was definitely as well as she's played away from grass post-2003. Her ballstriking was unbelievably crisp, and it was one of those rare matches where her defence was an asset. Her so-called "choke" has also been overstated -- apart from those 2 DFs in the 2nd-set tiebreak (and, let's face it, how many big matches has Venus actually had where she hasn't thrown in some DFs at crucial times), it's not like she collapsed in a mountain of unforced errors at all.
You are a mess. I suggest you look at Venus's ball-striking, movement, length, energy in her '07 encounter against Jankovic compared to the '10 encounter with Sin. She's half the mover in the latter, with half the assurance off the ground.

Actually, compare the '05 level of tennis at the USO to her '10 match. The difference in athleticism is stark. Even in '08 the difference is palpable.

I know you are a concentrated Venus hater, but there's no need to revise the truth so shamelessly.
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #188
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

Sharapova fans could get on me for this, but Maria losing against Justine at the AO 06 SF. Maria was really good that day, but Justine was just better. First set Maria was amazing and she was the third to, Justine was just better on the day
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #189
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

2005 AO Serena V sharapova. No "shoulder excuse" Pova playing to her absolute limit (with her best serves) yet, still lost to an out of shape and off form Serena.

Also Venus V sharapova 2005 Wimbledon SF (except that Venus was on point that day and showed pova who truly rules on Wimbledon lawn. No excuses for pova....she played her best and still lost!
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #190
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by cswab22 View Post
Sharapova fans could get on me for this, but Maria losing against Justine at the AO 06 SF. Maria was really good that day, but Justine was just better. First set Maria was amazing and she was the third to, Justine was just better on the day
Why would Sharapova fans get on you for that? It's no secret that Maria played lights out tennis against Henin multiple times in her career and still came out on the losing end more often than not.

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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #191
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by cswab22 View Post
Sharapova fans could get on me for this, but Maria losing against Justine at the AO 06 SF. Maria was really good that day, but Justine was just better. First set Maria was amazing and she was the third to, Justine was just better on the day
I agree. Sharapova actually attempted to play that match tactically more than any other time previously. Mixing up the height of ball, using acute angles, keeping excellent depth, serving smartly.

Justine just had more durability and a greater wealth of shots at her disposal. Plus her superlative defense was decisively advantageous.
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:51 AM   #192
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
I agree. Sharapova actually attempted to play that match tactically more than any other time previously. Mixing up the height of ball, using acute angles, keeping excellent depth, serving smartly.

Justine just had more durability and a greater wealth of shots at her disposal. Plus her superlative defense was decisively advantageous.
I know and it was refreshing to see to. I was shocked to see Sharapova hit a moonball that match
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 01:56 AM   #193
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

I'd say Sharapova vs Serena 2005 AO SF
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 02:06 AM   #194
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

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Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
You are a mess. I suggest you look at Venus's ball-striking, movement, length, energy in her '07 encounter against Jankovic compared to the '10 encounter with Sin. She's half the mover in the latter, with half the assurance off the ground.

Actually, compare the '05 level of tennis at the USO to her '10 match. The difference in athleticism is stark. Even in '08 the difference is palpable.

I know you are a concentrated Venus hater, but there's no need to revise the truth so shamelessly.
You really have no right to accuse people of revising the truth when you claim that shitfest Venus and Jankovic played at the US Open in '07 was some classic I remember even Jankovic was laughing about how terrible the match was in her press conference after it (this was in the days when she actually had a sense of humour).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cswab22 View Post
Sharapova fans could get on me for this, but Maria losing against Justine at the AO 06 SF. Maria was really good that day, but Justine was just better. First set Maria was amazing and she was the third to, Justine was just better on the day
Nah. Maria had had literally about 1 week's practise in the offseason because of an ab injury, and it showed - her groundstrokes were well below her best that entire tournament. I would argue the reason that she uncharacteristically mixed things up in that match was because she knew she was too rusty to play her usual uber-aggressive way with enough consistency. Even if it was dramatic, it was one of the worse Sharapova-Henin matches.
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 02:19 AM   #195
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Re: Players playing at their peak and still losing the match

Huh interesting I didn't know she had an ab injury before the tournament

I would be interested if she tried some of those tactics against Serena today
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