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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:41 AM   #16
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
No, I mean that the common sense view of racism isn't at all like the technical one you provide.
Because psychologically, many people seek to provide a common sense definition of racism that does not implicate them in the process of racial oppression.

"I am a good person, and I believe in equality for all people -- how can I possibly be racist? I just told a racist joke, but I have black/brown/yellow friends! I even have had sex with black/brown/yellow people before."

But if you contribute to any of the projects of white racism/supremacy, you are a racist. However, like Moby said, there is a spectrum of racist implication, so to speak.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #17
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
It's true.
But Jews are now "white." Being white, how are they overrepresented in anything? Why are you making that distinction between "white" and "Jew"? Would you say that people of Scottish descent are overrepresented in those same institutions? No. The fact that you are making that distinction between white and Jew is the result of racism and anti-Semitism.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:47 AM   #18
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Another point: what do you mean by "intent"?

Because I doubt most overtly racist people think of themselves as bad people or even deliberately racist. They are mostly misguided people with old-fashioned views of race that they picked up somewhere or other. So ultimately, ignorance is the root of racism (and here, I speak of racism as "racial prejudice), and intent, or the lack of, is the result of that ignorance.
By intent, I mean the state of one's mind when they are doing the action. Intent that I believe leads to a racist outcome is hatred of a racial group, belief in inferiority/superiority of that racial group, or essentializing certain characteristics to certain racial groups.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:48 AM   #19
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
By intent, I mean the state of one's mind when they are doing the action. Intent that I believe leads to a racist outcome is hatred of a racial group, belief in inferiority/superiority of that racial group, or essentializing certain characteristics to certain racial groups.
Can you give an example of a racist action that is done without intent, in the sense you have used that word?
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:51 AM   #20
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
But Jews are now "white." Being white, how are they overrepresented in anything? Why are you making that invidious distinction between "white" and "Jew"? Would you say that people of Scottish descent are overrepresented in those same institutions? No. The fact that you are making that distinction between white and Jew is the result of racism and anti-Semitism.
I made no such distinction.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #21
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
I made no such distinction.
If you aren't making that distinction then, saying Jews are overrepresented in those institutions = Whites are overrepresented in those institutions. White is a race, Jew is not.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #22
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Can you give an example of a racist action that is done without intent, in the sense you have used that word?
Well, I don't believe that any such racist actions exist.

But here is one many thought to be racist: A white person calling a black person a "gorilla" without disliking blacks, believing that they are inferior, or essentializing characteristics to them. Said white person claimed that there was no intent of the kind I mentioned.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 07:58 AM   #23
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
If you aren't making that distinction then, saying Jews are overrepresented in those institutions = Whites are overrepresented in those institutions. White is a race, Jew is not.
Jews are a segment of the white population who are overrepresented in all of those institutions.

I'd say the same if Nigerian-Americans were overrepresented. That doesn't mean that I don't think they are black.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:10 AM   #24
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
Jews are a segment of the white population who are overrepresented in all of those institutions.

I'd say the same if Nigerian-Americans were overrepresented. That doesn't mean that I don't think they are black.
But there is not a historical set of racist discourses that would be invoked by a statement about Nigerian-American overrepresentation. That oppressive history exists behind the idea that Jews are overrepresented in government, academia, elite universities, and among the world's billionaires. What you just said could have come right out of Hitler's mouth in 1935.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:10 AM   #25
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
A white person calling a black person a "gorilla" without disliking blacks,
I find that hard to believe. If I don't like a black person, I wouldn't call them a gorilla. If I think she's a really bitch, nasty person, I will call her just that.

You don't have to be racist to all people in that race to be a racist towards a particular person.

Some people may be fine with other races as long as they still in their place etc... There's different kinds of racism.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:12 AM   #26
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
But there is not a historical set of racist discourses that would be invoked by a statement about Nigerian-American overrepresentation. That oppressive history exists behind the idea that Jews are overrepresented in government, academia, elite universities, and among the world's billionaires. What you just said could have come right out of Hitler's mouth in 1935.
And? Hitler thought that overrepresentation of Jews was a bad thing. I don't.

And because of that my statement isn't anti-Semitic but Hitler's would be. My statement is just fact about the world. And facts can't be anti-Semitic.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #27
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
And? Hitler thought that overrepresentation of Jews was a bad thing. I don't.
Why not? Jews are white people, and overrepresentation of whites at the top of those institutions ---> white supremacy.

Are you arguing that white supremacy isn't a bad thing?
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #28
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
And because of that my statement isn't anti-Semitic but Hitler's would be. My statement is just fact about the world. And facts can't be anti-Semitic.
Your statement isn't a fact about the world though, because ethnicity/race/"Jewishness" are socio-cultural categories, not natural ones. Jewishness is not grounded in discrete, scientific fact - its meaning is constantly in flux and contingent upon historical circumstances. So any statement linking Jewishness to overrepresentation in those institutions is not a fact, its necessarily interpretive.
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #29
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
Why not? Jews are white people, and overrepresentation of whites at the top of those institutions ---> white supremacy.

Are you arguing that white supremacy isn't a bad thing?
Jews are overrepresented but whites are not. Imagine there's a country with a 90% white population and 10% black population. 100 seats need to be filled. 90% of those seats are filled by whites and 10% are filled by blacks. So no overrepresentation of whites. But of those 90 seats filled by whites, 80% are Jewish (let's say that they are 5% of the white population). So there is overrepresentation of Jews but not of whites. White people can have more than one identity, right?
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Old Nov 30th, 2012, 08:25 AM   #30
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
Your statement isn't a fact about the world though, because ethnicity/race/"Jewishness" are socio-cultural categories, not natural ones. Jewishness is not grounded in discrete, scientific fact - its meaning is constantly in flux and contingent upon historical circumstances.
So? There is a socio-cultural category and those in that category are overrepresented.

Would you also disagree that blacks are not underrepresented because race is not a discrete, natural category?
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