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View Poll Results: Venus or Maria?

Venus Williams 150 82.42%
Maria Sharapova 32 17.58%
Voters: 182. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #121
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
Maria has no tactics. She just goes out and hits the ball. She may have improved how to play defense some, and think about doing it, but that isnt exactly what I call tactical know how. We see that in her matches with Serena especialy. Granted Serena is the much better player and a bad matchup for her, so there is probably no good solution for that. However Maria doesnt even try anything new. She just tried the same thing every single time, outslugging Serena from the baseline, and gets clobbered each time doing so. If she had any tactics at all she would atleast try something different, even make some subtle adjustments but none. That is also why other people who are bad matchups for her or she has trouble beating like Azarenka, Henin, Mauresmo, she pretty much just keeps losing to unless she has an "in zone" day, or they have an off day, or both.
I should say that I think there's a distinction between being good at devising strategies, and "court sense" (admittedly I was using them interchangeably earlier in the thread, so that's my bad) -- court sense is what makes a good defensive player, and that's more innate than actually being a good strategist. For example, Wozniacki I don't think is a very good strategist seeing as she goes out there with the same old crappy gameplan against limited scrubs like Goerges and gets a beatdown everytime, but she still unquestionably has very good court sense -- she unconsciously/instinctively has a good feel for where to place the ball on the court in order to make it as awkward as possible for her opponent, and to give herself enough time to recover her positioning.

...Maria is no GOAT when it comes to court sense by any means, but what she's shown in that department over the past couple of years (especially on clay this year) is better than anything Venus has shown in her whole career.
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #122
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Maria's so master tactician herself, but there is seriously no one more brainless than an off form Venus Williams.
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #123
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Maria's so master tactician herself, but there is seriously no one more brainless than an off form Venus Williams.
The girl in your sig begs to differ.
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #124
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by HaplessPossum View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpkRM4NcygI

Watch the shots at 1:55 and 5:12 to see how good Venus' defence really is.
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #125
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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The girl in your sig begs to differ.
Touche
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #126
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place
I think I'd agree with you in that Venus has never had a great defensive game, her mindset is offensive even when she's not dictating the point!! But at the best, her retrieving was insane, so unbelievable that great offensive players couldn't hit through her. It may not be smart defense, but it' was effective!!
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:00 PM   #127
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place
that shot at 1:55...I'd like to see any great defensive player replicate that shot with that type of swing/motion more than once in a match

referencing 5:12 is like referencing one of those fail left-handed lobs Maria will hit and calling that good defense
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #128
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
...But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player...
Well, that earlier clip of the Maria-Venus Wmbledon '05 semi was chockfull of consistently and potently successful defense from Venus. As is the Venus-Lindsay US Open '00 final below

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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:32 PM   #129
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Venus obviously.

I saw that Wimbledon match where peak Venus smacked balls at peak Pova.
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:34 PM   #130
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Why is this still being debated? The poll clearly shows what people think can we end this one please its really a bad look...
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #131
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place
first, to say shell miss 9/10 is false, simple as that.. throughout her carreer, thats her shot. the backhand on the run.. she can hit it dtl or crosscourt with a supreme angle.. you can say she wouldnt get it right all the time but 1/10? she would be slamless with those odds, youre talking about a legend.. but i get that we tend to exagerate just to show a point.. if that was it, ok.

second, i agree with you. venus can chase many balls but she wont produce good shots when shes simply defending. her defense, to be efficient, needs to be counter striking. thats the defensive game she mastered in 2000-03, hitting passing shots at will when she was almost out of the picture..
it happens that since shes essencially an attacker, shed get lost when just defending because she doesnt have that mindset to force an error like wozniacki has..
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #132
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by azinna View Post
Well, that earlier clip of the Maria-Venus Wmbledon '05 semi was chockfull of consistently and potently successful defense from Venus. As is the Venus-Lindsay US Open '00 final below

Where are the numerous great defensive points in this video? I'll admit 4:23 is a rare occurrence of Venus playing a good defensive point - for once she focusses on getting the ball back to a great length rather than just trying to hit it as hard as she can. But other than that, it's her usual shit - exhibit A being 4:40, where, despite being so quick once she's off the mark, she's painfully slow to anticipate where Davenport will hit the ball to and then swipes the ball into the most predictable places.
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Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:48 PM   #133
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Where are the numerous great defensive points in this video? I'll admit 4:23 is a rare occurrence of Venus playing a good defensive point - for once she focusses on getting the ball back to a great length rather than just trying to hit it as hard as she can. But other than that, it's her usual shit - exhibit A being 4:40, where, despite being so quick once she's off the mark, she's painfully slow to anticipate where Davenport will hit the ball to and then swipes the ball into the most predictable places.
Your view on defense is too basic. You're reducing it simply to what a player does once she reaches the ball.

But how about the psycholigical pressure that Vee getting to that extra ball time after time does to her opponents? You see countless times how players try to play it closer to the lines, go for too much..because they know that Vee will get to the ball otherwise?! THAT'S defense too.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #134
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Maybe the OP should have created a poll like mine and given an option for specific surfaces. Maybe if a decent number of posters gave Maria clay, or some even clay and very slow hard courts they would be thrown the bone they are searching for, but then again maybe that wouldnt be the case and they would be even more pressed, lol!
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #135
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Venus must play some quality defense to beat Davenport so consistently in Venus's peak years (I think she lost to Lindsay only once in all of 2000-2003 combined) since in terms of hitting Davenport is atleast as good as even peak Venus, and in fact more consistent probably too. So that would already dispell the idea Venus couldnt play good defense IMO. The defense was the big difference in their matches that period I recall. Davenport had to hit numerous winners to win a point, while Venus against the very slow Davenport only had to hit one.
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