[dsanders06]

Originally Posted by Dodoboy.

Think about what you just said sis.

So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport

Willytards' logic

Originally Posted by azinna

What? Perhaps there's a typo or missing word.

....

Nope. As I always say when these discussions come up, if defensive abilities were just about who could sprint the fastest then James Blake would be regarded as one of the best defensive players in the history of the ATP - when in reality, despite how quick Blake was at sprinting from A to B, you were virtually guaranteed to win the point if you got him on the defensive - just like Venus (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career. I'd estimate Claypova this year won a similar percentage of rallies from when she was in defensive positions as Venus did (i.e. a small percentage). Again, it's no surprise that some of Venus's best matches have come when she's had knee injuries - because she has always lived and died by the strength of her serve and ballstriking, and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.

[ExXotikal]

Originally Posted by Dodoboy.

Think about what you just said sis.

How outrageous is it to say Maria is a better version of Davenport when she leads the H2H, has more GS, a career GS, and beat the players Davenport couldn't beat/was winning GS during the same span time when both were at their peak? You all kill me. Davenport has only 3 GS.

Originally Posted by bandabou

It's too bad you didn't post in the peak Serena vs peak Maria thread...it'd been interesting to read your thoughts about THAT match-up.

He was true though, Naps had great footspeed 3 slaves trades ago but always defended like a dummy: no use of the slice, predictable patterns. This is why Serena always was a much better defender than that flop.

[Michael!]

Those who voted for Peak Maria should tell me what she can do better than Peak Venus!

[Slutiana]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport

Willytards' logic



Nope. As I always say when these discussions come up, if defensive abilities were just about who could sprint the fastest then James Blake would be regarded as one of the best defensive players in the history of the ATP - when in reality, despite how quick Blake was at sprinting from A to B, you were virtually guaranteed to win the point if you got him on the defensive - just like Venus (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career. I'd estimate Claypova this year won a similar percentage of rallies from when she was in defensive positions as Venus did (i.e. a small percentage). Again, it's no surprise that some of Venus's best matches have come when she's had knee injuries - because she has always lived and died by the strength of her serve and ballstriking, and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.

Hilarious.

[Matt01]

Originally Posted by blackandblue

"Almost anyone" in this instance not including the top two ranked players, right? Or are you arguing that either Azarenka or Sharapova moves better?

Azarenka yes, Sharapova no.

[forehand27]

Venus's game isnt really about defense. She is one of the most explosive offensive players in history. At her peak she hit the hardest serves, hardest return of serves, some of the hardest ever groundstrokes off both sides, explosive volleys and overheads. She didnt need to defend much. Still it is not like the slow Maria is a better defensive player, that is for sure. Even if you understand how to play defense you still need a certain amount of speed to pull it off.

[HippityHop]

Originally Posted by SilverSlam

I think that 05 Wimbledon match was as good as they're ever going to play each other. It was a great match, and both had their chances. Venus took them and won in two incredibly close and not so close sets.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App

And Venus still had her syndrome then. It just was not as far advanced and she didn't know what it was.

[forehand27]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport

Well a person can be aruged better than one with only 1 more slam. A person cant really be argued better than one with 3 more slams and almost double what you have. It is just like nobody could argue Clijsters as being better than Henin either, or Sanchez as being better than Goolagong. Slams are most important but there are other considerations but if someone totally owns you in slam wins the discussion is over.

That said this is a peak thread, not a thread about overall greatness, so I guess anything goes. If one can argue peak Pierce is better than peak Graf and peak Serena, than one can argue anything in a peak thread I guess, even peak Tanasugarn being better than peak Navratilova if they wish.

[dsanders06]

Originally Posted by Michael!

Those who voted for Peak Maria should tell me what she can do better than Peak Venus!

Maria's forehand better in every way, her backhand while not as deadly on the first strike is much more consistent both in terms of lack of errors and length on her shots.

Originally Posted by Slutiana

Hilarious.

Are you going to claim Venus is a tactically smart player again? I've been waiting for one of her delusional stans to claim it ever since this thread appeared

[TheDream]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport

Willytards' logic



Nope. As I always say when these discussions come up, if defensive abilities were just about who could sprint the fastest then James Blake would be regarded as one of the best defensive players in the history of the ATP - when in reality, despite how quick Blake was at sprinting from A to B, you were virtually guaranteed to win the point if you got him on the defensive - just like Venus (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career. I'd estimate Claypova this year won a similar percentage of rallies from when she was in defensive positions as Venus did (i.e. a small percentage). Again, it's no surprise that some of Venus's best matches have come when she's had knee injuries - because she has always lived and died by the strength of her serve and ballstriking, and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.

Stop the conjecture. You know nothing about tennis.

[TheDream]

Originally Posted by Matt01

Azarenka yes, Sharapova no.

Are you actually deluding yourself that Vika moves better than Serena? It's not even close, Serena would run circles around Vika.

[forehand27]

Off the top of my head I cant think of anything Azarenka does better than even current Serena, but then again she was a point from taking record # of aces Serena to a 3rd set at Wimbledon, and nearly beat her at the U.S Open, so there must be something she has the edge in.

[Matt01]

Originally Posted by TheDream

Are you actually deluding yourself that Vika moves better than Serena? It's not even close, Serena would run circles around Vika.

[TheDream]

Originally Posted by Matt01

You should be using that on yourself troll, to even intimate that Azarenka moves better than Serena.

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

Are you going to claim Venus is a tactically smart player again? I've been waiting for one of her delusional stans to claim it ever since this thread appeared

And Maria's some tactical genius?! If she was, she'd have figure out how to beat Vika more often than not (even on HC) by now.