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View Poll Results: Venus or Maria?

Venus Williams 150 82.42%
Maria Sharapova 32 17.58%
Voters: 182. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #226
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

And to be completely honest you showed that thread to say that ppl on this board considered Venus the favorite in that 2007 Miami match but the tennis experts and commentaries did not share the board's opinion. The tennis experts and commentators have only considered Venus the favorite in one of their match ups and that was the Stanford match in 2009.

Even at Wimbledon 2007 only Brad Gilbert picked Venus over Maria (i know this your fact because I have Wimbledon coverage on tape from that year and have watched it countless times) even after the way she best her in 2005 because of how poor Venus played on the round before and how Sharapova at the time was playing in good form her DF's didn't come at Wimbledon that year until that match with Venus!

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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #227
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
did she play Miami with injured wrist? did this injury affected her game?

Sharapova's game in 2009 was seriously affected by her injury , she couldn't use her serve ,she had to learn new service motion , it's different situations
And Venus' backhand has not been the same since and her forehand had actually became more of a weapon. Venus use to run around forehands to hit a backhand since 2007 she'll do the opposite!
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 12:51 PM   #228
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Miami match but the tennis experts and commentaries did not share the board's opinion.
Masha played poor before that match in Miami, her serve wasn't clicking and she was error-machine, lost to Zvonareva in IW , pls show me who picked her among specialists....
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 02:11 PM   #229
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by sickfalsetto View Post


Isn't this supposed to be a period of 2nd Peak Maria (a week before AO 08)? Venus wasn't even peak here yet still beat 6-4, 6-3
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Originally Posted by HaplessPossum View Post
That's an exhibition though so it's difficult to judge how hard they were both trying in that match. .
Exactly A year before that, Maria lost to Kim at that exhibition, a couple of weeks before she waxed Kim at the Australian Open even while in doublefault mode.

I mean if we're including exhibitions, I might as well mention that one in Malyasia* or somewhere a couple of weeks before the AO2010, where Maria even when in shitty enough form to lose to Kirilenko, managed to beat Venus

* ETA: Just found out it was Thailand

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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 02:16 PM   #230
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

dsanders is disqualified from having any credibility on this topic.
He has said in the past he wasn't even following tennis when Venus was at her peak. And I'm guessing (i can't tell because I have him blocked) he still be leaves that Sharapova's defense is better than Venus's was
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 02:21 PM   #231
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
dsanders is disqualified from having any credibility on this topic.
He has said in the past he wasn't even following tennis when Venus was at her peak. And I'm guessing (i can't tell because I have him blocked) he still be leaves that Sharapova's defense is better than Venus's was
Never said that at any point Keep on attacking strawmen because you don't have strong enough counter-claims to my actual arguments if you want, though.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #232
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

You guys suggesting Peak Venus would beat Peak Maria on slow surfaces should watch this highlights video of their match in Miami 2005.

And yes, I concede that Maria is closer to her peak here than Venus is (though it should be noted that this is one of Venus's better non-grass tournaments since 2003, seeing as she was on the high of beating Serena for the first time in 4 years in the very match before this), but it still gives an illustration of roughly how this match-up would work on these surfaces peak vs. peak:




Particularly watch the points at 1:42, 3:19, 4:19, 4:58, 6:25, 7:00. All these points, Venus hits serves/returns/groundstrokes that would've been clean winners or unreturnables on a super-quick surface, but because the surface is so slow, Maria is able to scrape them back into play -- and as soon as the rally gets to neutral, Maria becomes a heavy favourite due to how much more consistent she is in medium/long rallies. Even though Venus is able to chase down a lot of Maria's shots, the placement of her defensive shots is just far too tame and predictable to knock Maria off her stride or stop her doing what she wants to do with the ball.

And, btw, when people talk about Maria being more consistent than Peak Venus, they don't JUST mean she makes less errors - it also refers to the fact Peak Maria's average rally ball would be much more purposeful than Peak Venus's, typically being placed much closer to the baseline and/or using the width of the court more. Venus, even when at her very peak, her typical gameplan would be to try and blitz the point with 1 or 2 huge shots, but if that didn't work, her rally ball would become much more tentative -- particularly her forehand would start dropping a LOT of short shots, because it just was never technically capable of hitting huge shot after huge shot in long rallies. Peak Maria not only didn't have those technical glitches in her strokes, she also would have eaten up those short balls that Peak Venus would supply her with. Peak Venus could only have beaten Peak Maria if she kept the points as short as possible and used her more explosive first strike - she'd have been able to do it on grass and superquick hardcourts, but on slow surfaces, the surface just doesn't give you enough traction to be able to keep EVERY point short no matter how powerful you are, as Venus herself found out with her total LACK of big wins over top players on slow surfaces even when at her absolute peak.

So yeah, that Miami match is roughly how I'd expect a Peak Venus-Peak Maria match to pan out on slow hardcourts, except with Peaknus's superior serve getting her a few more games than she did in this match or maybe even sneaking out a set. And it would be the same story on clay to an even greater extent.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #233
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Even for those who insist that Maria is better on slow courts, lets put it this way. The 2000-2003 Venus would win every single match with Maria on grass, fast hard courts, and probably indoors. The 2000-2003 vs whatever people feel peak Maria is, Venus would still win "some" matches on clay and slower hard courts. So peak to peak Venus would still have the overall edge. The gap between the two on faster surfaces is enormous, much more than any preposed gap on slower ones. Maria is kind of a jack of all trades but master of none as far as surfaces go. She has the career slam, but she hasnt ever defended a slam title, won 2 slams in the same year, won a slam in back to back year. She isnt even close to the best player of her own era on any surface. Grass she is only about 5th or 6th behind all of Venus, Serena, Davenport, Mauresmo, probably soon Kvitova. She isnt even really any better than Henin on grass TBH, her only argument is the Wimbledon title which Henin doesnt have, otherwise it would be a no brainer Henin >>>> Sharapova on grass. Clay I am not sure where she is now but everyone outside of Henin sucks basically the last 15 years on clay, probably something like 5th behind Serena, Kuznetsova, and Ivanovic or so. On hard courts she also isnt top 5 overall considering Serena, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, and Venus.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #234
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
Even for those who insist that Maria is better on slow courts, lets put it this way. The 2000-2003 Venus would win every single match with Maria on grass, fast hard courts, and probably indoors. The 2000-2003 vs whatever people feel peak Maria is, Venus would still win "some" matches on clay and slower hard courts. So peak to peak Venus would still have the overall edge.
Nope, don't accept that atall.

Quote:
The gap between the two on faster surfaces is enormous, much more than any preposed gap on slower ones.
I'll concede that the gap between Venus and Maria on grass, is bigger than the lead Maria has over Venus on any surface (or ever will have), but the lead Maria has over Venus on slow hardcourts is just as big as the one Venus has over Maria on quick hardcourts, and the lead Maria has over Venus on clay will probably be even bigger by the end of her career.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #235
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

The gap between Venus and Maria's U.S Open records are atleast as large as the gap between their Australian Open records, and Venus does better than Maria by a huge margin in the 2nd biggest slow hard court event- Miami, while Venus does better than Maria in all fast court events. This without even considering Venus peaked at a much tougher time for the womens game than Maria. How you conclude the gap on slower hard courts is as much as the gap on faster ones is beyond me. Add to that you admit the gap on grass is more than the gap on clay, and more than it will ever be, and it is clear Venus overall comes out ahead.

Anyway I am tired of arguing about this, the poll results speak for themselves I think. The general consensus seems strong, peak Venus owns all except peak Serena. Peak Venus is even crushing Henin on the peak thread I created, and Henin is by far one of the 3 dominant players of the era along with Serena and Venus, so if even she falls well short, nobody else will have a chance.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #236
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Never said that at any point Keep on attacking strawmen because you don't have strong enough counter-claims to my actual arguments if you want, though.
He has you on block so why are you even addressing him directly you thick troll?
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 04:46 PM   #237
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
The gap between Venus and Maria's U.S Open records are atleast as large as the gap between their Australian Open records, and Venus does better than Maria by a huge margin in the 2nd biggest slow hard court event- Miami, while Venus does better than Maria in all fast court events. This without even considering Venus peaked at a much tougher time for the womens game than Maria. How you conclude the gap on slower hard courts is as much as the gap on faster ones is beyond me. Add to that you admit the gap on grass is more than the gap on clay, and more than it will ever be, and it is clear Venus overall comes out ahead.
No, because even though Venus is better on her best surface, than Maria is on HER best surface, Maria is better on her WORST surfaces than Venus is on her WORST surfaces. That should be obvious I mean Maria has made the semis atleast 3 times at EVERY Grand Slam, whereas Venus has only made the semis twice at the Australian and ONCE at RG



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He has you on block so why are you even addressing him directly you thick troll?
Honey, after 3 years here you're surely not naive enough to still think people actually use ignore lists? You only have to look at how, throughout this thread, AcesHigh and Williamsova mysteriously start being able to see my posts when they want to reply to something, despite me apparently "being on their ignore lists".
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #238
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

We ain't gonna mind, dsanders. There was a time, even as late as '10 when he'd still insist that Maria's better than Serena off the ground, that Serena didn't have movement...

And all this is Vee's own damned fault. Losing to an inferior version of her so many times.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #239
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Peak Venus wins on any court (including Clay) with ease.
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Old Nov 19th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #240
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
No, because even though Venus is better on her best surface, than Maria is on HER best surface, Maria is better on her WORST surfaces than Venus is on her WORST surfaces. That should be obvious I mean Maria has made the semis atleast 3 times at EVERY Grand Slam, whereas Venus has only made the semis twice at the Australian and ONCE at RG
Like I already said it is better to to the best or one of the best on all your better surfaces than to be a jack of all trades and master of none like Maria is as far as surfaces go. Venus has a huge legacy at Wimbledon and is considered a top 3 grass courter of all time. Maria is probably not even top 30 all time on any one surface, and might not even be top 5 of her own era on any surface at this point. Venus is also not just a grass courter. She has a fabulous record at the U.S Open which is far superior to Maria's at any slam at this point, and despite supposably being this sucky slow hard courters has an incredible record at the Miami event, the biggest non slam event outside the WTA Championships or Olympics, and again far superior to Maria's record at any singular major event. Not to mention her Olympic record. Venus during the period she was considered hands down the best player in the World from mid 2000-early 2002 not only had by far the best grass record but also clearly had the best hard court record of any women too. This has never been the case for Maria. So I would much rather be Venus and have incredible records at atleast half the major events, and be remembered as an all time legend at one, and have 2 years I was considered by far the best grass and hard court (despite not winning the Australian) player in the World, then won only once at each spread out over 8 years, and be far from the best player of the era on any surface, and also never been the best player in the World.
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