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View Poll Results: Venus or Maria?

Venus Williams 150 82.42%
Maria Sharapova 32 17.58%
Voters: 182. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #151
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Let's debunk this myth that Venus owned Davenport once and for all Here are the meetings between Venus and Davenport between 2000-03:

5 (5) 2000 WIMBLEDON GRASS F V.Williams6-3 7-6(3) 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 STANFORD HARD F V.Williams 6-1 6-4 2 (1)
3 (3) 2000 US OPEN HARD F V.Williams 6-4 7-5 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 LINZ CARPET F L. Davenport 6-4 3-6 6-2 2 (1)
2 (2) 2001 WIMBLEDON GRASS S V.Williams 6-2 6-7(1) 6-1 3 (3)
3 (2) 2001 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 7-5 4 (4)
4 (3) 2001 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams 7-6(6) 6-4 3 (1)
2 (1) 2002 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 6-1 9 (3)
2 (1) 2002 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams7-5 6-010 (2)
4 (4) 2003 WIMBLEDON GRASS Q V.Williams 6-2 2-6 6-1 5 (5)

Every.single.one (literally) was on either grass or on the super-quick US Open Series hardcourts, because Venus was too useless on slow hardcourts even at her peak to get far enough in draws to play Lindsay, and both were too useless on clay. And even on these super-quick surfaces, we can see Lindsay made it competitive many times in 2000-01 (not so much 2002, but Lindsay was slumping due to a knee injury at that time). So if the Venustards' best argument that she would own Maria is Venus's record against Davenport, then that suggests Peak Maria would be able to make it very competitive against Venus even on super-quick surfaces (again, this is by the Venustards' logic that Maria would perform at Davenport's level) and it says nothing whatsoever about the match-up on slow surfaces

"Peak Venus" does seem to be subject to an awful lot of mythologising on here these days. It's no good people just making sweeping statements that "Peak Venus was unbeatable!!!!11" when all of "Peak Venus"s performances were on super-quick surfaces -- the only significant tournament she won on slow hardcourts was the Sydney Olympics, and even there she barely scraped past washed up Seles and Sanchez-Vicario ( ). She simply never, even at her peak, beat anyone of Peak Maria's calibre on slow hardcourts or clay.
am i the only one who think those facts work for venus? lol
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #152
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

d. you keep on preaching and maybe in 2014 off season it will be 75/25%
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #153
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Venus was too useless on slow hardcourts even at her peak to get far enough in draws to play Lindsay
Venus at the Australian Open from 2001-2003 went semis, quarters, and final. Davenport those same years went semis, DNP, and 4th round. It was Davenport's fault more than Venus's they did not play on slow hard courts at Venus's peak. BTW did you know Miami was considered a slow hard court. The same place Venus won in 1998, 1999, 2001, and made finals in 2002. What was Davenport doing those years?

Quote:
and both were too useless on clay.
Venus was in the Roland Garros finals in 2002, and won Premier titles on clay in 2001 and 2002. Although her best years of clay tennis were probably 1999 and 2004 which were even better outside a dissapointing RG.


Quote:
And even on these super-quick surfaces, we can see Lindsay made it competitive many times in 2000-01 (not so much 2002, but Lindsay was slumping due to a knee injury at that time). So if the Venustards' best argument that she would own Maria is Venus's record against Davenport, then that suggests Peak Maria would be able to make it very competitive against Venus even on super-quick surfaces
We already know peak Maria would not be remotedly competitive against Venus on grass since they actually played twice at Wimbledon when Venus was nowhere near her peak and Maria in hers (since the general consensus is her true peak was 2004-early 2008 except on clay), and Maria got destroyed both times. One doesnt need to reference a Davenport match to know that.

As for fast hard courts one only has to compare their U.S Open records and the conversation ends. Maria cant even come close to the same success in a way weaker era.

You keep talking about "super quick hard courts" but Miami is not a super quick hard court, and the regular summer events on U.S hard courts mostly arent either, except the relatively new Cincinnati event. Other than the U.S Open, Venus has never played Cincinnati near her prime, and of course boycotted Indian Wells on their faster hard courts. So most of Venus's dominance and success outside her great U.S Open record is slower hard courts of some sort. Compare Maria's record at Miami to Venus's and it is again a joke and no contest. Compare Maria's best streaks on hard courts to Venus in the summers of 2000 and 2001. Again no contest. Are you actually thinking Australia is the only place that is a slow hard court, and all others a super quick hard courts.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #154
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
Venus at the Australian Open from 2001-2003 went semis, quarters, and final. Davenport those same years went semis, DNP, and 4th round. It was Davenport's fault more than Venus's they did not play on slow hard courts at Venus's peak. BTW did you know Miami was considered a slow hard court. The same place Venus won in 1998, 1999, 2001, and made finals in 2002. What was Davenport doing those years?



Venus was in the Roland Garros finals in 2002, and won Premier titles on clay in 2001 and 2002. Although her best years of clay tennis were probably 1999 and 2004 which were even better outside a dissapointing RG.




We already know peak Maria would not be remotedly competitive against Venus on grass since they actually played twice at Wimbledon when Venus was nowhere near her peak and Maria in hers (since the general consensus is her true peak was 2004-early 2008 except on clay), and Maria got destroyed both times. One doesnt need to reference a Davenport match to know that.

As for fast hard courts one only has to compare their U.S Open records and the conversation ends. Maria cant even come close to the same success in a way weaker era.

You keep talking about "super quick hard courts" but Miami is not a super quick hard court, and the regular summer events on U.S hard courts mostly arent either, except the relatively new Cincinnati event. Other than the U.S Open, Venus has never played Cincinnati near her prime, and of course boycotted Indian Wells on their faster hard courts. So most of Venus's dominance and success outside her great U.S Open record is slower hard courts of some sort. Compare Maria's record at Miami to Venus's and it is again a joke and no contest. Compare Maria's best streaks on hard courts to Venus in the summers of 2000 and 2001. Again no contest. Are you actually thinking Australia is the only place that is a slow hard court, and all others a super quick hard courts.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:06 PM   #155
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
We already know peak Maria would not be remotedly competitive against Venus on grass since they actually played twice at Wimbledon when Venus was nowhere near her peak and Maria in hers (since the general consensus is her true peak was 2004-early 2008 except on clay), and Maria got destroyed both times. One doesnt need to reference a Davenport match to know that.
Actually, Venus was probably closer to peak form in their 2005 Wimbledon match than Maria was. And even so, that match was competitive. Of course, Peak Venus would still beat Peak Maria on grass somehow, but it wouldn't be anything close to a beatdown - no match between two of the best players of a generation in peak form would EVER be a beatdown (incidentally, even though I think Peak Maria would almost certainly beat Peak Venus on slow surfaces, it wouldn't be a beatdown, Venus's serve alone would ensure she got a respectable number of games).



Quote:
As for fast hard courts one only has to compare their U.S Open records and the conversation ends. Maria cant even come close to the same success in a way weaker era.
Again: I'M NOT SAYING MARIA WOULD BEAT PEAK VENUS ON QUICK HARCOURTS (including the US Open). My point in the previous post was simply in response to people trying to use the Venus-Davenport headtohead as some kind of argument, when it doesn't apply to the discussion about whether Venus could beat Maria on slow surfaces, because Venus never beat Lindsay on slow surfaces.

Quote:
You keep talking about "super quick hard courts" but Miami is not a super quick hard court, and the regular summer events on U.S hard courts mostly arent either, except the relatively new Cincinnati event. Other than the U.S Open, Venus has never played Cincinnati near her prime, and of course boycotted Indian Wells on their faster hard courts. So most of Venus's dominance and success outside her great U.S Open record is slower hard courts of some sort. Compare Maria's record at Miami to Venus's and it is again a joke and no contest. Compare Maria's best streaks on hard courts to Venus in the summers of 2000 and 2001. Again no contest. Are you actually thinking Australia is the only place that is a slow hard court, and all others a super quick hard courts.
Yes, Venus has a better record than Maria at Miami. But Maria has a MUCH better record than Venus at the slow hardcourt Grand Slam (probably even bigger than the gap between Venus and Maria at the US Open), no?

And no, virtually all the US Open Series surfaces were lightning-quick back in the early 21st century (bar Canada, but Venus never played there anyway).
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:13 PM   #156
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Actually, Venus was probably closer to peak form in their 2005 Wimbledon match than Maria was.
This is in no way true. 2005 is Maria's 2nd best Wimbledon performance ever after only 2004, heck actually until the final, a final Maria never go to play in 2005 due to Venus, 2005 was much better than 2004. No other Wimbledon Maria played has she reached her 2004-2005 grass level ever again. Venus has played many Wimbledons better than 2005, obviously all her peak years of 2000-2002, 2007, probably 2008.


Quote:
Yes, Venus has a better record than Maria at Miami. But Maria has a MUCH better record than Venus at the slow hardcourt Grand Slam (probably even bigger than the gap between Venus and Maria at the US Open), no?
The point is looking at their records it seems the only place Maria has the edge on Venus on slow hard courts is the Australian Open. Yes the most important slow hard court event as it is a slam, but the way you were talking it seemed to be that Maria had the edge on all those hard courts which make up 80% or more of the tour today, with Venus only at the U.S Open and the rare really fast hard court even of nearly the same speed, and that is far from the case. It is more like the Australian Open is the only hard court event Maria has an edge, with Venus nearly everywhere else.

Quote:
And no, virtually all the US Open Series surfaces were lightning-quick back in the early 21st century (bar Canada, but Venus never played there anyway).
I dont know what you are smoking but it is a known fact that all courts, especialy the faster courts of old, have been slowed down in the last decade, for both men and women. Even the U.S Open courts have been.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #157
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

I think the polls pretty accurate of the result, I think Peak Venus would win 4/6 against Peak Masha, but it would be tight. Vee has the bigger first strike, and serve while Maria was the cleaner, more consistent ball striker. The real difference maker was Williams movement, though a few posters have criticised her for not playing smart defence, peak Venus got everything back and but huge pressure on opponents to go for too much. Wimbledon 05 is a pretty good example of how it would play out IMO
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #158
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
This is in no way true. 2005 is Maria's 2nd best Wimbledon performance ever after only 2004, heck actually until the final, a final Maria never go to play in 2005 due to Venus, 2005 was much better than 2004. No other Wimbledon Maria played has she reached her 2004-2005 grass level ever again. Venus has played many Wimbledons better than 2005, obviously all her peak years of 2000-2002, 2007, probably 2008.




The point is looking at their records it seems the only place Maria has the edge on Venus on slow hard courts is the Australian Open. Yes the most important slow hard court event as it is a slam, but the way you were talking it seemed to be that Maria had the edge on all those hard courts which make up 80% or more of the tour today, with Venus only at the U.S Open and the rare really fast hard court even of nearly the same speed, and that is far from the case. It is more like the Australian Open is the only hard court event Maria has an edge, with Venus nearly everywhere else.



I dont know what you are smoking but it is a known fact that all courts, especialy the faster courts of old, have been slowed down in the last decade, for both men and women. Even the U.S Open courts have been.


But I would add that Maria's overall record at the Australian being better than Venus's is not really relevant to the thread anyway as we are talking about peak level of play rather than career achievements. As it stands, Venus at the 2003 Australian = Maria at the 2008 Australian, so she doesn't even have that advantage
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:31 PM   #159
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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am i the only one who think those facts work for venus? lol
Not at all.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #160
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

True, Venus at the 2003 Australian Open was outstanding and atleast on par with Maria's wonderful performance at the 2008 Australian Open. Venus also played some good tennis at the Australian Open in 1998, 1999, 2002 losing to early career nemisis Davenport in the first two otherwise would probably have been a finalist both years, and in 2002 losing in 3 sets to an inspired Seles who played one of her best post stabbing matches where both women played at a much higher level than the crappy Hingis vs Capriati final to come. Maria played pretty good tennis at the 2005, 2006, and at times 2012 Australian Open. 2007 she played garbage tennis to make the final, which was exposed in the final itself, WTA was just in a different state already by then. So in terms of subjective sheer peak play and prime level play at the event, Venus is probably as good or better than Maria even at the Australian Open.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #161
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
This is in no way true. 2005 is Maria's 2nd best Wimbledon performance ever after only 2004, heck actually until the final, a final Maria never go to play in 2005 due to Venus, 2005 was much better than 2004. No other Wimbledon Maria played has she reached her 2004-2005 grass level ever again. Venus has played many Wimbledons better than 2005, obviously all her peak years of 2000-2002, 2007, probably 2008.
Obviously, the 2005 season as a whole isn't Venus's best season. Her performance at Wimbledon that year was one of her best. There was a discussion about this a few months ago and quite a few people thought Venus's performances on grass between 2005-08 were better than when her career as a whole was peaking (though I'm sure those people would deny it now, because it doesn't suit Venus in this particular argument to say it ).




Quote:
The point is looking at their records it seems the only place Maria has the edge on Venus on slow hard courts is the Australian Open. Yes the most important slow hard court event as it is a slam, but the way you were talking it seemed to be that Maria had the edge on all those hard courts which make up 80% or more of the tour today, with Venus only at the U.S Open and the rare really fast hard court even of nearly the same speed, and that is far from the case. It is more like the Australian Open is the only hard court event Maria has an edge, with Venus nearly everywhere else.
Yes, ONLY the Australian Open, by far the most important slow hardcourt tournament there is.



Quote:
I dont know what you are smoking but it is a known fact that all courts, especialy the faster courts of old, have been slowed down in the last decade, for both men and women. Even the U.S Open courts have been.
No. The US Open Series hardcourts only started being slowed down significantly about 5 years ago -- well after the timeframe when Venus was dominating those tournaments. What is even your point, and how does it relate to Peak Maria vs Peak Venus?

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But I would add that Maria's overall record at the Australian being better than Venus's is not really relevant to the thread anyway as we are talking about peak level of play rather than career achievements. As it stands, Venus at the 2003 Australian = Maria at the 2008 Australian, so she doesn't even have that advantage
And this sums up how divorced from reality Venustards are. Goodnight
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #162
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

I wish Venus was lucky enough to play Ana Ivanovic and Sara Errani in slam finals at AO and RG.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #163
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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I wish Venus was lucky enough to play Ana Ivanovic and Sara Errani in slam finals at AO and RG.
You do realise Venus lost to Ivanovic at that very tournament where she made the final

Anyway, Ivanovic finished 2008 ranked #5 -- just one place below where Hingis finished in 2001, the year when she gave PEEK VENUS!!111 an utter beatdown at the AO, so
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #164
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
You do realise Venus lost to Ivanovic at that very tournament where she made the final

Anyway, Ivanovic finished 2008 ranked #5 -- just one place below where Hingis finished in 2001, the year when she gave PEEK VENUS!!111 an utter beatdown at the AO, so

owned...
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #165
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
You do realise Venus lost to Ivanovic at that very tournament where she made the final

Anyway, Ivanovic finished 2008 ranked #5 -- just one place below where Hingis finished in 2001, the year when she gave PEEK VENUS!!111 an utter beatdown at the AO, so
Ah douchesanders, stupid as always. PEAK Masha got to play...Ivanovic to win her lone Oz open.
Peak Venus (and certainly that wasn't in '08), got to play peak Serena and Hingis.
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