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View Poll Results: Venus or Maria?

Venus Williams 150 82.42%
Maria Sharapova 32 17.58%
Voters: 182. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #136
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Where are the numerous great defensive points in this video? I'll admit 4:23 is a rare occurrence ....
I said "As is the final." The video clip shows you the last few instances of pressure defense by Venus. But the match is chockfull of them. Click on the link to the youtube site for that match. You can start from the beginning of the second set if you wish, to save time.

Meanwhile, Forehand27 is spot on about the Lindsay-Venus matches.

And bandabou basically summarizes why Lindsay and Maria (in that Wimbledon clip you keep ignoring) were worn down by the second set:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Your view on defense is too basic. You're reducing it simply to what a player does once she reaches the ball. But how about the psycholigical pressure that Vee getting to that extra ball time after time does to her opponents? You see countless times how players try to play it closer to the lines, go for too much..because they know that Vee will get to the ball otherwise?! THAT'S defense too.
....
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 12:46 AM   #137
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
Venus must play some quality defense to beat Davenport so consistently in Venus's peak years (I think she lost to Lindsay only once in all of 2000-2003 combined) since in terms of hitting Davenport is atleast as good as even peak Venus, and in fact more consistent probably too. So that would already dispell the idea Venus couldnt play good defense IMO. The defense was the big difference in their matches that period I recall. Davenport had to hit numerous winners to win a point, while Venus against the very slow Davenport only had to hit one.
Thank you!


Now let's move on.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #138
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria




Well This video goes against the only make it 1/10 argument while on defense.



If you watch from 00:53-1:57 just from this video Venus was on defense 4 times out of 9 points and she won 3 of them!!! 2 were her signature backhand down the lines! (Yea other players attacked Venus' forehand because it was more prone to break down but they also wanted to stay far away from that deadly backhand)
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #139
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

bitter sharapova fans bad repping me

clearly can't take the fact that their goddess (lol) will never be as good on a tennis court as real legends of the game

venus is rightly regarded as a legend

sharapova is just some blonde bimbo who sleeps with sports players and launches clothing ranges while occasionally playing tennis
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:39 AM   #140
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
Venus must play some quality defense to beat Davenport so consistently in Venus's peak years (I think she lost to Lindsay only once in all of 2000-2003 combined) since in terms of hitting Davenport is atleast as good as even peak Venus, and in fact more consistent probably too. So that would already dispell the idea Venus couldnt play good defense IMO. The defense was the big difference in their matches that period I recall. Davenport had to hit numerous winners to win a point, while Venus against the very slow Davenport only had to hit one.
If anything, the fact that Davenport managed to push Venus so much in that US Open final even when Venus was at her very peak, only serves to prove that Venus's movement wasn't an asset (as well as proving that claims that Peak Maria would've been no match for Peak Venus are nonsense). People in this thread are saying words to the effect of "Venus is just as good an offensive player as Maria if not even better, plus she has much better movement, therefore Venus would give her a beatdown". If that was the logic, it would apply to the Venus-Davenport match-up too - and yet, we see Davenport leads the head-to-head against Venus, including a big advantage on slow courts, AND she managed to test Venus even at Venus's very peak on a super-quick hardcourt. I would suggest that proves that Venus's much better athleticism/footspeed is a red herring and wouldn't mean anything in the Venus-Sharapova match-up, just as it did not in the Venus-Davenport match-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azinna View Post
I said "As is the final." The video clip shows you the last few instances of pressure defense by Venus. But the match is chockfull of them. Click on the link to the youtube site for that match. You can start from the beginning of the second set if you wish, to save time.

Meanwhile, Forehand27 is spot on about the Lindsay-Venus matches.

And bandabou basically summarizes why Lindsay and Maria (in that Wimbledon clip you keep ignoring) were worn down by the second set:



....
I just watched about 20 mins of the middle of the USO match, and I'm sorry, I just don't see Venus winning tons of points from defensive positions I just see her time and again chasing down lots of balls but being completely inefficient with what she does with them when she gets there and her opponent easily finishing off the point time and time again. Venus's success in this match comes with her great serves and great first strike off the ground, as far as I can see.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #141
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Regardless of the career H2H Venus lost only 1 match to Davenport at her 2000-2003 peak, and this is a thread only about peak play, and it was a small indoor event, so if you are using Davenport as the best indicator for Maria, well you see it isnt exactly a favorable one for Maria.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:46 AM   #142
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post
Regardless of the career H2H Venus lost only 1 match to Davenport at her 2000-2003 peak, and this is a thread only about peak play, and it was a small indoor event, so if you are using Davenport as the best indicator for Maria, well you see it isnt exactly a favorable one for Maria.
But she tested her severely when Venus was at her peak (she had multiple leads in that 2000 US Open final), even on super-quick surfaces (remember I've never said Maria would beat Peaknus on quick hardcourts). Logically for Lindsay to have tested Peaknus so much, either Lindsay (and by extension Maria) are much better ballstrikers than Venus is, or Venus's defence has never been an asset.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:50 AM   #143
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

If we consider Maria's peak to be pre-shoulder surgery when she couldn't play on clay, then Venus wins fairly comfortably in straight sets on all surfaces.
If we consider Maria's peak to be 2012, she'd get absolutely mauled on grass/hard and their clay matches would be 50/50 with the only clear edge going to Maria on Parisian clay.

Regardless, Venus.

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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #144
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
If anything, the fact that Davenport managed to push Venus so much in that US Open final even when Venus was at her very peak, only serves to prove that Venus's movement wasn't an asset....I just watched about 20 mins of the middle of the USO match, and I'm sorry, I just don't see Venus winning tons of points from defensive positions ....
That's fine, dsanders. Perhaps the clip below could help. Otherwise, it's been nice discussing.

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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #145
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

As usual it's just usuless discusssing with douchesanders. He just won't see and won't listen to reason.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #146
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by الحاجّ مالك View Post
Did dsanders just say Venus's movement was never an asset? Venus? As in WILLIAMS?

Anyways, to you lot:
ahoura, Aleks, AndreConrad, Angelpova, Cecig, dsanders06, effedcamel, Fighterpova, joćo., Joe., Lucyxx, M.M, MaruSharapova, Masha Fierce, NashaMasha, Qetusi, Roookie, selesbooz, Slampova, Vartan, viktoryork
Take a seat you dumb fucks.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 12:51 PM   #147
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

So Martha fans think she'll win, while the entire rest of TF picks Venus I came in here thinking I'd have to defend Venus, but looking at the way Maria's getting dragged in the poll... I'll actually say some aren't cutting it enough slack, the way it played in AO08 QF molesting Henin would definitely give Peak Venus fits, regularly going down in two tight sets or three-setters, but Venus would dominate the meetings on grass and win more often than not on hard as well. And against similar players(Seles, Pierce, Davenport) Venus' records against them respectively are 9-1(1-0 on clay,) 7-3(3-0 on clay with 0 sets lost) and 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:10 PM   #148
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by الحاجّ مالك View Post
Did dsanders just say Venus's movement was never an asset? Venus? As in WILLIAMS?

Anyways, to you lot:
ahoura, Aleks, AndreConrad, Angelpova, Cecig, dsanders06, effedcamel, Fighterpova, joćo., Joe., Lucyxx, M.M, MaruSharapova, Masha Fierce, NashaMasha, Qetusi, Roookie, selesbooz, Slampova, Vartan, viktoryork
Take a seat you dumb fucks.
I see a lot of usernames with "Pova" and "Masha" in them in that list

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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #149
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by Williamsova View Post
So Martha fans think she'll win, while the entire rest of TF picks Venus I came in here thinking I'd have to defend Venus, but looking at the way Maria's getting dragged in the poll... I'll actually say some aren't cutting it enough slack, the way it played in AO08 QF molesting Henin would definitely give Peak Venus fits, regularly going down in two tight sets or three-setters, but Venus would dominate the meetings on grass and win more often than not on hard as well. And against similar players(Seles, Pierce, Davenport) Venus' records against them respectively are 9-1(1-0 on clay,) 7-3(3-0 on clay with 0 sets lost) and 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface
As I've said, my vote is Venus in 3 overall. But you're in no position to call her 'it'. Sit your ass down.

Like who the fck do you think you are?

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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #150
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Re: Peak Venus VS Peak Maria

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Originally Posted by Williamsova View Post
And against similar players(Davenport) ... Venus' records against them respectively are 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface
Let's debunk this myth that Venus owned Davenport once and for all Here are the meetings between Venus and Davenport between 2000-03:

5 (5) 2000 WIMBLEDON GRASS F V.Williams6-3 7-6(3) 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 STANFORD HARD F V.Williams 6-1 6-4 2 (1)
3 (3) 2000 US OPEN HARD F V.Williams 6-4 7-5 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 LINZ CARPET F L. Davenport 6-4 3-6 6-2 2 (1)
2 (2) 2001 WIMBLEDON GRASS S V.Williams 6-2 6-7(1) 6-1 3 (3)
3 (2) 2001 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 7-5 4 (4)
4 (3) 2001 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams 7-6(6) 6-4 3 (1)
2 (1) 2002 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 6-1 9 (3)
2 (1) 2002 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams7-5 6-010 (2)
4 (4) 2003 WIMBLEDON GRASS Q V.Williams 6-2 2-6 6-1 5 (5)

Every.single.one (literally) was on either grass or on the super-quick US Open Series hardcourts, because Venus was too useless on slow hardcourts even at her peak to get far enough in draws to play Lindsay, and both were too useless on clay. And even on these super-quick surfaces, we can see Lindsay made it competitive many times in 2000-01 (not so much 2002, but Lindsay was slumping due to a knee injury at that time). So if the Venustards' best argument that she would own Maria is Venus's record against Davenport, then that suggests Peak Maria would be able to make it very competitive against Venus even on super-quick surfaces (again, this is by the Venustards' logic that Maria would perform at Davenport's level) and it says nothing whatsoever about the match-up on slow surfaces

"Peak Venus" does seem to be subject to an awful lot of mythologising on here these days. It's no good people just making sweeping statements that "Peak Venus was unbeatable!!!!11" when all of "Peak Venus"s performances were on super-quick surfaces -- the only significant tournament she won on slow hardcourts was the Sydney Olympics, and even there she barely scraped past washed up Seles and Sanchez-Vicario ( ). She simply never, even at her peak, beat anyone of Peak Maria's calibre on slow hardcourts or clay.
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