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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #91
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
that the baby in the womb is also alive
that's debateable for quite a good length of time during pregnancy. I've had sonograms during my pregnancy starting at 6wks pregnant (which is really 4 because they count your period as part of the date) did I see life growing yes, did I see an alive baby, eh no I didn't. I didn't see that for a long time, imo. However, I know not to see that as just because a baby is growing inside of you doesn't mean he/she will ever make it out of your womb alive. I know this first hand with my sister having a miscarriage at 6 months pregnant. Guess what baby couldn't survive outside of the womb, hospital couldn't stop contractions = miscarriage. BTW, does anyone know the percentage of natural abortions, ie miscarriages that happen in the first 8-12 wks of pregnancy where the person didn't even know they were pregnant? A woman has a miscarriage because she's on medicine and doesn't know she's pregnant..... is that a murder? How about if she has a miscarriage because she does physical activities but she didn't know she was pregnant? Murder?? or I guess I should ask is that involuntary Manslaughter?

Personally I don't see any difference between those situations and an abortion. Other than knowledge of the pregnancy which history shows is never gauranteed to end in the birth of healthy baby.

As someone said before choosing to have an abortion is very rarely down lightly. Making rules that effect the majority of a people based on the bad actions and choices of a few is never good policy. I think most Pro-Choice individuals wouldn't have an abortion unless under specific situations but that doesn't mean you want anyone controlling what situations are acceptable and which ones aren't.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #92
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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It's a baby when it's born.

It's a baby if it's born early and can still live...
so what is it before its born?
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #93
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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so what is it before its born?
Not yet a baby.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #94
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
how can something be life but not alive?
a baby in the womb is alive but needs food from its mother to survive. a baby outside the womb is alive but needs food to survive.

imo, responsibility begins the moment you choose to have sex not once the baby is physically outside the womb to age 18
see my post about paracytic twins to see how something can be living but not really alive. I gave my definition of alive as being able to think and be aware of the world around them.... which is why people pull the plug on people when brain activity fails to show any cognitive activity.

Everybody needs food to survive, adults and children... clearly that's not what we mean by being able to survive outside of the womb. There is an age in pregnancy where a baby's lungs are strong enough, their heart is strong enough, their other organs are strong enough, and their brain is strong enough to try to regulate these functions and there is an age in utero where these things are not strong enough even with man made help to support life. If the lungs aren't developed enough there is nothing you can do outside of the womb that baby will not live whether it's 2 seconds, 2 minutes, or 2 days it doesn't matter that baby never had a chance of survival. Which is what makes this case so sad because it's evident the baby was not going to survive so by not aborting it all they did was put the mom's life at risk and they lost that gamble. So instead of ending the pain and madness, because some feel that if there is a heartbeat that means the baby is alive, they had to prolong the pain of the family for three days and then compound the pain by causing the mom's death. Had they just done the right thing, the mom would've been saved and actually had a chance to have another baby but now by trying to force someone to save the unsavable they have prevented the possible births of other children by this woman.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #95
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Not yet a baby.
asked what it is not what it isn't
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:34 PM   #96
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by Rocketta View Post
see my post about paracytic twins to see how something can be living but not really alive. I gave my definition of alive as being able to think and be aware of the world around them.... which is why people pull the plug on people when brain activity fails to show any cognitive activity.

Everybody needs food to survive, adults and children... clearly that's not what we mean by being able to survive outside of the womb. There is an age in pregnancy where a baby's lungs are strong enough, their heart is strong enough, their other organs are strong enough, and their brain is strong enough to try to regulate these functions and there is an age in utero where these things are not strong enough even with man made help to support life. If the lungs aren't developed enough there is nothing you can do outside of the womb that baby will not live whether it's 2 seconds, 2 minutes, or 2 days it doesn't matter that baby never had a chance of survival. Which is what makes this case so sad because it's evident the baby was not going to survive so by not aborting it all they did was put the mom's life at risk and they lost that gamble. So instead of ending the pain and madness, because some feel that if there is a heartbeat that means the baby is alive, they had to prolong the pain of the family for three days and then compound the pain by causing the mom's death. Had they just done the right thing, the mom would've been saved and actually had a chance to have another baby but now by trying to force someone to save the unsavable they have prevented the possible births of other children by this woman.
this case is an exception though. they risked the mother's life for the baby's which i don't advocate at all.

offshoot: so do you think abortions shouldn't be allowed if organs are developed? (not including rape, incest, mother's life in danger etc in this)
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #97
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
asked what it is not what it isn't
It's not yet a baby.

A living thing not yet able to sustain itself on its own.

See Rocketta's posts for more details.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #98
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

I thought scientists said that a fetus was a human being
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #99
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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I thought scientists said that a fetus was a human being
Is it a foetus at inception? REALLY?
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #100
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

^idk I was asking
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #101
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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this case is an exception though. they risked the mother's life for the baby's which i don't advocate at all.

offshoot: so do you think abortions shouldn't be allowed if organs are developed? (not including rape, incest, mother's life in danger etc in this)
Me personally, I wouldn't oppose a ban on late term abortions and when I say late I mean late like 7 months unless the mom's life is at risk... however, whenever you limit something you always worry about abuse of power, for example say a father has impregnated his daughter, happens way too often, said father abuses, imtimidates and eventually holds her against her will, she escapes and does not want to have this baby but she is 7 months, who am I to say to her she must have the baby and can give it up for adoption if she doesn't want to keep him/her? Maybe the thought of having an incest baby in this world would be too much for her, maybe if she has the baby her mom will get custody the same mom who turned a blind eye to the abuse in the home, it happens.... I don't know if I want to limit that person's choices so I guess I'm for a ban on late term abortions except for specific cases where the doctor/social worker will document the cause of the abortion.

BTW, just fyi for people..... most doctors will not even contemplate inducing labor or giving a c-section unless absolutely has to prior to 37 wks... that's how far a long they feel you should be before there is a significant risk of complications with the baby outside of the womb. So if you can wait, they generally will make you wait until you are 37 wks... Let's say you are only 35 wks on Dec 31, 2012 and want to induce labor to get the tax break of a dependent for 2012.... most doctors will tell so sorry too bad.....
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 07:07 PM   #102
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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What does this have to do with my argument that it is alright to not want to bring a child in this world if you can't provide for this child?
I was trying to address why its only a woman's issue when men are required to make the baby for example what if a scenario emerged with a woman wanting an abortion and the father not wanting one or vice versa. Ok the woman is the vessel that carries the baby but I don't think this is only something effects women yet it is presented in that manner.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #103
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

BTW, is there a concensus what the science community calles a fetus or when life begins?
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 07:18 PM   #104
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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I was trying to address why its only a woman's issue when men are required to make the baby for example what if a scenario emerged with a woman wanting an abortion and the father not wanting one or vice versa. Ok the woman is the vessel that carries the baby but I don't think this is only something effects women yet it is presented in that manner.
Are you a guy? I think you may have a different viewpoint if you were in a situation where you wanted an abortion and everyone around was opposed to it (the father, your family or whomever). Why should you be forced to have a baby you do not want for whatever reason?

Read Rocketta's posts. I think she articulates very well what pregnancy is like and how it affects women.

Once again, a man has a say: he can choose to wear a condom, not have sex or have a visectomy (if he really does not want children). And I read recently that a pill was being made for men (contraceptive). Thank goodness.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48689501...-control-pill/
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #105
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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I was trying to address why its only a woman's issue when men are required to make the baby for example what if a scenario emerged with a woman wanting an abortion and the father not wanting one or vice versa. Ok the woman is the vessel that carries the baby but I don't think this is only something effects women yet it is presented in that manner.
Unfortunately, for men they only play a part in conception but no part in the development and birth of a baby. That is 100% due to the mom and her body. The man has a part in the development and raising of the child if he wants but he still usually has a choice. So a woman can't get pregnant without a man's sperm but that's the beginning and end of what a woman needs from the man. So, seeing as it's her body and her body only whether she wants her body to carry a child or not is only up to her. After a child is born they may need a father but that is not forced on men. All that is forced on them is to pay money for me it's no different than forcing them to pay taxes.... no one likes it but we do it.
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