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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #76
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by debby View Post
Nah, it's too simplistic. I have a friend who forgot the pill (it happens, really try to take the pill everyday for 21 days in a month at the same hour - it's so ANNOYING) but took the pill of tomorrow. She got pregnant.
She changed her mind and kept her baby. She is now a happy mother of a 3yo little girl.

Pill doesn't protect you at 100% . And you can forget it, I don't see how it is that bad to forget the pill only once and boom you are pregnant, you are really unlucky. Anyone who thinks most of women think an abortion is an easy decision to have are fools IMO. Sure, there is a minority who doesn't treat abortion like it should be, but there are minorities everywhere and strange behaviours.

And why do you compare abortion to prostitution?
and that's the only reason i think abortion should be legal despite being strongly pro-life..that contraceptives aren't 100% effective. (the no money argument is stupid though. do you get to murder a 2 yr old you can't afford to feed? )
my view is that until contraceptives become 100% effective, abortion should be recognized for it is..justifiable murder.

incidentally, i think prostitution should definitely be legal. i never understood why it isn't almost every person, excluding i guess the stephen hawking types, uses their body to make a living. feels arbitrary that it's ok to wait tables or give massages but not let a man be inside you. firefly got this right (inara )
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:26 PM   #77
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

I have to say I agree regarding the economic argument, I'm not particularly keen on people getting abortions just cause it doesn't suit their financial situation, its a bit like when Irish model Katy French (RIP) said it would be fine to get an abortion if it interfered with a woman's career She was rightly criticized for that opinion.

Firefly was such a liberal show, I have the box set wish it had been given a chance
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #78
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
I have to say I agree regarding the economic argument, I'm not particularly keen on people getting abortions just cause it doesn't suit their financial situation, its a bit like when Irish model Katy French (RIP) said it would be fine to get an abortion if it interfered with a woman's career She was rightly criticized for that opinion.

Firefly was such a liberal show, I have the box set wish it had been given a chance
Is theirs or the child-to-be's?
Is it fair to bring a child into this world if you can't afford to provide for this said child?
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #79
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

What a sad story!

Oh and everyone forgot to mention that a large portion of pro-lifer's are also anti contraceptives as well they feel that preventing life is as bad as ending a fetus life(their belief in life).

Yes fetuses have heartbeats very early on and I can see how it's viewed as life until you see a paracytic twin or see stories where eggs split but one never forms fully and is absorbed by the other fetus but still kind of grows inside so that when that is older they end up having to have surgery to remove teeth and bone from their bodies left behind from twins. Removal of paracytic twins is no different to me than an abortion, just way more gross because you have this mutated animated thing sucking the life out of a child but it's not really alive.... it may live but it's not alive... which is the ability to think, and be aware of the world around them in some form... other than just breathing and making noises.

It's weird you have countries where women can't get abortions but it's alright to kill the baby after it's born because it's a female and not a male.... that's why some see pro-life as just another term for anti-woman.

Oh and for those who say not being able to support the child is not a valid reason to have an abortion..... well in the best of worlds that could be true but if you live in a poor country and having another child means not only will you not be able to feed that child the attempt to feed them will insure that your other children suffer. Also, in western societies (well let me speak for the US) it seems the very people who want everyone to have every conceived baby are the main ones complaining about social programs that help the poor. Also, (can only speak to the US) Women and children make up 70% of those living in poverty to require every woman to have an unwanted pregnancy will only increase that number and those crying about pro-life are the last to want to adopt or take care of those children.. It's an odd hypocritical position imho.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #80
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by hablo View Post
Is theirs or the child-to-be's?
Is it fair to bring a child into this world if you can't afford to provide for this said child?
I just pointed that out how if you are poor adding another mouth to feed in some countries can mean all your children will starve now. Also in the west, the main ones who want people to have these children are the first ones bitching and moaning about welfare and the poor.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #81
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

Is everyone forgetting that some fathers get lumbered with a kid they may have to pay child support to thanks to pro-life policies, its not all anti-woman. I understand in a lot of cases the fathers are completely absent but I know in Ireland of a few guys who've been stuck in a situation with a kid they don't want, not that the girl would automatically of had an abortion had it been an option but its a possibility.

I'm fed up with feminists claiming how "anti-woman" the world is, in Ireland for example its extremely rare for a man to receive full custody of a child no matter how bad a mother he faces in court the court almost always rules in the woman's favour. Some bullshit about children needing a mother more, she could be an alcoholic and still win a custody battle.

I'm not sure about other countries and father's rights but in Ireland they suck.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #82
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by hablo View Post
Is theirs or the child-to-be's?
Is it fair to bring a child into this world if you can't afford to provide for this said child?
is it fair to keep a helpless 2 month old in this world if you can't afford to provide for this child?
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #83
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by Rocketta View Post
I just pointed that out how if you are poor adding another mouth to feed in some countries can mean all your children will starve now. Also in the west, the main ones who want people to have these children are the first ones bitching and moaning about welfare and the poor.
Totally agree with you.

Anti-choice are full of paradox. They want children to come into this world at all cost and don't care what happens to these children until their parents ask for welfare. . .
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Is everyone forgetting that some fathers get lumbered with a kid they may have to pay child support to thanks to pro-life policies, its not all anti-woman. I understand in a lot of cases the fathers are completely absent but I know in Ireland of a few guys who've been stuck in a situation with a kid they don't want, not that the girl would automatically of had an abortion had it been an option but its a possibility.

I'm fed up with feminists claiming how "anti-woman" the world is, in Ireland for example its extremely rare for a man to receive full custody of a child no matter how bad a mother he faces in court the court almost always rules in the woman's favour. Some bullshit about children needing a mother more, she could be an alcoholic and still win a custody battle.

I'm not sure about other countries and father's rights but in Ireland they suck.
What does this have to do with my argument that it is alright to not want to bring a child in this world if you can't provide for this child?

You're talking about custody and we're talking about abortion.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #84
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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is it fair to keep a helpless 2 month old in this world if you can't afford to provide for this child?
Well the 2 month old is alive already so what's your point?
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:44 PM   #85
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

yes that sucks that sometimes fathers have to pay child support (but that's just money) and some can't get custody when they are the better parent..... however, those two issues pale in comparison to countries where women lose custody of their children just because they remarry.

Sadly for men the child support issue is the risk they take by having sex unprotected just like STDs. A man can try to protect himself from an unwanted pregnancy too. May not be 100% but I'm sure if 100% of men protected themselves the .01% of pregnancies that occur would be the price to pay. BTW, paying money while you get to live your life how you want, where you want doesn't even approach the pain of the tit of breast feeding mom in inconvience to one's life of having a baby. You are talking about the absolute change physically a woman goes through during pregnancy. Then she has a child, and it's safe to say for the first year at minimum you the mom NEVER gets a restful full night sleep. You are always tired and stressed. That is just the first year. The dad may or may not be there to help. But equating a woman deciding she can not handle a pregnancy for whatever reason to a man having no say in whether has an abortion is not right. They are not equal. The consequences of the action of getting pregnant are not equal. Many not only do not help out with the children but do not pay child support. To prevent this all men have to do is where a condom and hopeful use a spermicide. However, women can be on birth control pills and mess up once like previously said or they can be on birth control and not mess up at all but get prescribed another medication that makes their BC ineffective. Some women can't take BC because of the hormones. Some women are just dumb and really think the rhythm method really works... some women have drug and alcohol problems where they are too inebriated to think rationally enough in the moment to prevent pregnancy (is these really the people who should have children?).

Either, until a man has to endure the pain of cramps from your uterus expanding to hold the baby, or deal with the mounting pressure on your bladder or the incontinence that a lot of women experience after child birth from all the pushing, or the pain of having a scalpal cut open your vagina(penis) to make more room for the baby, or have their bellies cut open for a c-section and have to endure the pain and embarrassment of having to be helped up from your bloody hospital bed to use the bathroom for the first time after a c-section (BTW, did I say that is the most painful thing in the world)... I just can't feel too sorry for them and look at the impact of pro-life legislation the same on both genders.


And don't get me started about year two!
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #86
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Well the 2 month old is alive already so what's your point?
that the baby in the womb is also alive
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #87
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

So true: men can also take responsibility for unwanted pregnancies... Wear a damn condom. It takes two to tango.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #88
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
is it fair to keep a helpless 2 month old in this world if you can't afford to provide for this child?
well that's the point right, one is here in the world and one isn't yet? Once they are here a parent has a responsibility to provide for them until they are 18 or emmancipated. That's exactly why some people choose to terminate the pregnancy before they are here in the world. Whether you feel life begins at inception or when a child can survive outside the mom's womb, even if you consider it life, it is not alive and a 2 month old child is alive.... unless it's a vegetable kept living just pacify some parental guilt or despite all evidence the parents believe there is some consciouness going on...... Why do people pull the plugs when there is no brain function in living people because they don't feel those people are really alive anymore and are not really living just because they have life.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 06:52 PM   #89
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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that the baby in the womb is also alive
It's a baby when it's born.

It's a baby if it's born early and can still live...
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 07:05 PM   #90
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Re: Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion

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well that's the point right, one is here in the world and one isn't yet? Once they are here a parent has a responsibility to provide for them until they are 18 or emmancipated. That's exactly why some people choose to terminate the pregnancy before they are here in the world. Whether you feel life begins at inception or when a child can survive outside the mom's womb, even if you consider it life, it is not alive and a 2 month old child is alive.... unless it's a vegetable kept living just pacify some parental guilt or despite all evidence the parents believe there is some consciouness going on...... Why do people pull the plugs when there is no brain function in living people because they don't feel those people are really alive anymore and are not really living just because they have life.
how can something be life but not alive?
a baby in the womb is alive but needs food from its mother to survive. a baby outside the womb is alive but needs food to survive.

imo, responsibility begins the moment you choose to have sex not once the baby is physically outside the womb to age 18
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