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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 03:56 AM   #1
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Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

If Serena win 2 more FO titles, she would have tied Justine record in Paris.
She has been considered the greatest clay court player of her generation.

Will a tie by Serena put this legacy in question or it does not matter because Justine style of play still give her an edge?
That brings up another question. What weighs more in a legacy? The number of Grand Slam titles or the style of play?

Justine won her French Open titles in 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007; or a span of 5 years.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:38 AM   #2
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy And Serena Pursuit Of History... On Collision Cours

No. Justine faced a stronger field, and holds a 4-1 H2H on clay against serena.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:42 AM   #3
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

OMG the insecurity
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:45 AM   #4
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

Well, I think we have no argument that Henin was the better clay court player. She won three RG titles in a row, and two of them even without dropping a set and the other one without losing a match on clay. She was too dominant on clay, that's what people have to admit and admire.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:45 AM   #5
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

If she could win two more, the longevity of that feat would give her the edge for me.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:47 AM   #6
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by Roookie View Post
OMG the insecurity
I take it that you're not interested. That is OK.

This is actually a good debate to have.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:52 AM   #7
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
If Serena win 2 more FO titles, she would have tied Justine record in Paris.
She has been considered the greatest clay court player of her generation.

Will a tie by Serena put this legacy in question or it does not matter because Justine style of play still give her an edge?
That brings up another question. What weighs more in a legacy? The number of Grand Slam titles or the style of play?

Justine won her French Open titles in 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007; or a span of 5 years.
Believe it or not, despite what the results may prove to anyone, I never considered Justine as a clay court player, even if she was playing well on that surface. Actually, I think 2013 Serena has a better clay court game, as perfect as it gets.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:53 AM   #8
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by vswfan View Post
Well, I think we have no argument that Henin was the better clay court player. She won three RG titles in a row, and two of them even without dropping a set and the other one without losing a match on clay. She was too dominant on clay, that's what people have to admit and admire.
Serena is only 3 clay titles from Justine's career total. I can see her winning at least 5 more, if 2 were RG, Serena would have the edge imo. I trump longevity over a few years of domination.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:54 AM   #9
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by vswfan View Post
Well, I think we have no argument that Henin was the better clay court player. She won three RG titles in a row, and two of them even without dropping a set and the other one without losing a match on clay. She was too dominant on clay, that's what people have to admit and admire.
Impressive indeed.
You know what?
What makes this interesting is that Serena still has the opportunity to achieve those 2. Winning 3 RG in a row and 2 of them w/o dropping a set. This is till possible.
Does the fact Serena, if she indeed ties Justine, would have won her titles over 2 decades, while Justine achieve her feat in a compact time of 5 years.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 04:59 AM   #10
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

I think that 4-1 H2H is too much of a dealbreaker for most folks.


2 RG's without dropping a set is a HEAVY ask. She hasn't actually taken ANY slam without dropping a set since 2010.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 05:14 AM   #11
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by 2notrump View Post
I think that 4-1 H2H is too much of a dealbreaker for most folks..
Point taken,.
However, overtime, depending on what Serena does really well, the impact of this H2H could diminish.

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2 RG's without dropping a set is a HEAVY ask. She hasn't actually taken ANY slam without dropping a set since 2010.
True, but it is not impossible if Serena continues her current form or/and improves on it.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 05:17 AM   #12
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Impressive indeed.
You know what?
What makes this interesting is that Serena still has the opportunity to achieve those 2. Winning 3 RG in a row and 2 of them w/o dropping a set. This is till possible.
Does the fact Serena, if she indeed ties Justine, would have won her titles over 2 decades, while Justine achieve her feat in a compact time of 5 years.
I think if you include these sort of intangibles then you also have to look at who Henin had to go through in order to win those titles. Clijsters*, Kuznetsova*, Hingis, Serena*, Jankovic, Ivanovic*, Sharapova*
* - Past/Future RG Champions.


It's not her fault the competiton isn't up to par and I guess Sarin could have that kind of success, I mean she's outright dragged clay-specialists. But it's hard to imagine a few more snatchings of Errani/Sharapova/Schavione could match her resume up with Henin's clay wig collection.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #13
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

Serena is obviously one of the best players ever, and that translates onto all surfaces to a high level. Her clay season this year was one of the best any player has ever had.

However, having watched both play in their prime on clay (Based on what we've seen thus far from Serena), I would still consider Justine to be the better clay court player, though I adore Serena.

Serena could win every FO from now until she retires and I still think Justine on clay at her best tops Serena.

I don't want to get into this too much, but I do think these threads are funny and some Serena fans seem to change their perspective on how to determine GOAT titles. When talking about the greatest player of all time, in the eyes of some fans, Serena fits the bill despite not having won the most grand slams ever. This is because they say her level of play is greater than those who came before her, despite that not translating into as many GS titles.

But then I see threads like this were all of a sudden Serena winning as many RG titles as Justine makes her as good or even better than Justine. I find it a bit silly.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 05:40 AM   #14
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

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Originally Posted by Alexander18 View Post
I don't want to get into this too much, but I do think these threads are funny and some Serena fans seem to change their perspective on how to determine GOAT titles. When talking about the greatest player of all time, in the eyes of some fans, Serena fits the bill despite not having won the most grand slams ever. This is because they say her level of play is greater than those who came before her, despite that not translating into as many GS titles.

But then I see threads like this were all of a sudden Serena winning as many RG titles as Justine makes her as good or even better than Justine. I find it a bit silly.
I know you don't want to get tangled in this, but I think that's what tennisbum is after.

Right now, there's no question Justine's Clay Resume > Serena's Clay Resume.

But if Serena won a couple more RG's would the discussion still be so clear cut or is there room for debate. Not necessarily saying it's true or even likely, but could the complexion of the conversation change.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 05:48 AM   #15
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Re: Justine's [Clay Court] Legacy & Serena Pursuit Of History...On Collision Course?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander18 View Post
Serena is obviously one of the best players ever, and that translates onto all surfaces to a high level. Her clay season this year was one of the best any player has ever had.

However, having watched both play in their prime on clay (Based on what we've seen thus far from Serena), I would still consider Justine to be the better clay court player, though I adore Serena.

Serena could win every FO from now until she retires and I still think Justine on clay at her best tops Serena.

I don't want to get into this too much, but I do think these threads are funny and some Serena fans seem to change their perspective on how to determine GOAT titles. When talking about the greatest player of all time, in the eyes of some fans, Serena fits the bill despite not having won the most grand slams ever. This is because they say her level of play is greater than those who came before her, despite that not translating into as many GS titles.

But then I see threads like this were all of a sudden Serena winning as many RG titles as Justine makes her as good or even better than Justine. I find it a bit silly.
The thread was not made with the intention you are ascribing it to.
There have been a variety point of views given, both by Serena fans and non-Serena fans.
If you read the comments carefully, you would have quickly noticed that all the Serena fans are NOT espousing the same point of view.

Some times, you just have to take some things at their face value... w/o assigning any nefarious intent.
This is a sports forum, and this is what sport fans do: engage in discussion about he athlete and their place in history,... statistics in hands.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing stats are everything, but I would not go as far as dismissing them as if they are insignificant in the evaluation of once career.

In fact, a stats, which was effectively used by poster 2notrump, is their H2H. Justine leads 4-1. That gets people attention.
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Last edited by tennisbum79 : Nov 25th, 2013 at 06:41 AM.
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