[Chrissie-fan]

Originally Posted by bandabou

Because none of them were even put on a pedestal they didn't deserve. Commentators saying things like: maria's still the better player and this was in '12, yada yada... that's the reason that Masha gets the full wrath.

Well, Maria didn't say that. Carillo is the one you should be upset with, not Maria.

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan

Well, Maria didn't say that. Carillo is the one you should be upset with, not Maria.

Not mad at Maria...

[Iguehi]

Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan

I very much doubt that I'm "the only voice of reason among Mashafans." It's just that people on both side of the issue often are drawn into a mudpie throwing contest, or something that comes close to it whenever there is a this vs that player discussion, and Serena vs Maria seems an even more sensitive comparison than most. So whenever they feel that someone from the opposite side is throwing a shade (learned that expression at GM, so it's good for something after all ) at their fave they go into payback mode and say something that they hope will upset them as well, even though they don't really think it's true, or it's at least an exaggerated version of what they think is true. It's a vicious circle really. Nobody is really sure who started it but everyone is convinced that it wasn't them.

It is sensitive only because the comparison has nothing to do with the tennis on court. I would say that maybe Serena vs Justine, if we are talking about contemporaries, would have been a better if not more legitimate comparison since it would deal with on court results, achievements and stature as champions. Serena against Maria is everything but that.

[Iguehi]

Originally Posted by MrProdigy555

Azarenka DOES fight through. I don't know what you people are talking about. Vika guts out wins.

The only thing is, Vika's quality of play doesn't range as high or as low as Serena's/Sharapova's. Her level of play is much more consistent throughout matches. That's a positive when she's playing most of the other women, but not necessarily a positive when playing Serena (or Sharapova) because they can both raise their level, imo.

This is one of the reasons why I like Victoria.

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by Iguehi

It is sensitive only because the comparison has nothing to do with the tennis on court. I would say that maybe Serena vs Justine, if we are talking about contemporaries, would have been a better if not more legitimate comparison since it would deal with on court results, achievements and stature as champions. Serena against Maria is everything but that.

Exactly..Serena vs Maria was never any discussion for anybody who was objectively looking at the numbers. But because she was the glamour girl, the token white girl...people hyped her up.

[MrProdigy555]

Originally Posted by Iguehi

This is one of the reasons why I like Victoria.

Do you also like Ferrer?

[DevilishAttitude]

Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan

Well, every player is inferior to Serena, not only Maria. To enable someone to challenge Serena on a consistent basis she would need all the best qualities of every other top player combined. But reading TF one could get the impression that the top ten or twenty players consist of one genius and a collection of nobody's, which does neither Serena or the tour as a whole any favors.

As for mental superiority, I think that both, or all three if we include Vika are very tough. The outstanding record that both Maria and Vika have in three set matches testify to that. The main reason that for example Maria always loses by such a big margin against Serena is that everything Maria does very well Serena does even better. I don't think that a lack of mental toughness is the reason why Maria suffers all those beatdowns, she's just being outhit. In their match at the YEC for example I think Maria was mentally as tough as she could possibly be and she definitely played a good match. But to no avail because Serena was just too good.

It's hard to measure mental toughness anyway. For all we know the #250 ranked player in the world may be a mental giant, but she's just not good enough to do better and without her mental toughness she might be the #500.

This is exactly what I've been saying. Maria's losses to Serena come down to being not as good, nothing to do with mental weakness.

Originally Posted by bandabou

I hear you, buddy.

But the thing is: you're like the ONLY voice of reason among Mashafans.
If Mashatards would just accept the fact that Serena IS better than Maria..mentally, gamewise, movementwise, etc... then there wouldn't be much problem.

Instead all you hear from douchesanders and co: Serena doesn't have a groundgame, Serena doesn't have movement, yada yada..

I hope you aren't including me in this, all I have said is that Maria is tough mentally, whereas Serena can very occasionally go into a meltdown. I haven't said there is a single other area of Sharapova's game which I would call better than Serena's.

Originally Posted by Griffin.

Who said Maria was better this year

Exactly. I'm not sure why this has turned into a Serena vs Maria thread. Their strengths and weaknesses are obvious, and every tennis fan knows Serena is the better player. It's almost as if cos there's one area that Maria might be equal or better than Serena, that it's treated with fury by Serena fans who can't bear to hear that she might not be the best at something. Particularly when it's a comparison to hear and Maria.

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by DevilishAttitude

This is exactly what I've been saying. Maria's losses to Serena come down to being not as good, nothing to do with mental weakness.

Serena is better AND mentally tougher than Maria.

Originally Posted by DevilishAttitude

I hope you aren't including me in this, all I have said is that Maria is tough mentally, whereas Serena can very occasionally go into a meltdown. I haven't said there is a single other area of Sharapova's game which I would call better than Serena's.

And in what fantasyland you decided that Maria is tougher mentally than Serena?! That's the thing that puzzles me. Maria is KNOWN for folding like a cheap tent against any decent opponent. Whereas Serena has come back many many times against world class opponents like Juju, Vee, etc..

Originally Posted by DevilishAttitude

Exactly. I'm not sure why this has turned into a Serena vs Maria thread. Their strengths and weaknesses are obvious, and every tennis fan knows Serena is the better player. It's almost as if cos there's one area that Maria might be equal or better than Serena, that it's treated with fury by Serena fans who can't bear to hear that she might not be the best at something. Particularly when it's a comparison to hear and Maria.

Because the area you wanna pick as Maria being greater at than Serena just ain't true.

[Chrissie-fan]

Originally Posted by rjd1111

" #1 Victoria Azarenka
Strengths:
- Currently the best returner in the game "



I have heard this said about Sharapova also.

Serena IMO is the best returner in the game today

All three have a great return of serve, but I admit that whenever I hear the words "return of serve" in the context of womens tennis that the first name that comes to my mind is Victoria Azarenka's. That girl definitely has a wicked return of serve. Serena has as well of course, but it really stands out in Vika's game as her main weapon, at least for me. It's like when I hear the word "service" I think of Serena, or "drop shot" - Radwanska for that matter.

[DevilishAttitude]

Originally Posted by bandabou

Serena is better AND mentally tougher than Maria.




And in what fantasyland you decided that Maria is tougher mentally than Serena?! That's the thing that puzzles me. Maria is KNOWN for folding like a cheap tent against any decent opponent. Whereas Serena has come back many many times against world class opponents like Juju, Vee, etc..



Because the area you wanna pick as Maria being greater at than Serena just ain't true.

Please give examples of matches where Maria has folded like a cheap tent against a decent opponent?

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by DevilishAttitude

Please give examples of matches where Maria has folded like a cheap tent against a decent opponent?

And you give me one when Serena had mental breakdown.

for Masha..'12 oz open. 2-0 30-0 up, only wins one more game..

[DevilishAttitude]

Originally Posted by bandabou

And you give me one when Serena had mental breakdown.

for Masha..'12 oz open. 2-0 30-0 up, only wins one more game..

She was outplayed by Azarenka that day. And Razzano at the French.

Anyways I'm not arguing about this any further as we aren't going to agree.

[MrProdigy555]

One that isn't an anomaly, please.

[DevilishAttitude]

Stosur US Open 2011.

[Chrissie-fan]

Originally Posted by bandabou

for Masha..'12 oz open. 2-0 30-0 up, only wins one more game..

But was that a mental breakdown? I think that Azarenka was just the better player that day. Better serve, better return, better groundstrokes, better movement..... Not every bad day at the office is necessarily the result of a mental breakdown.

But ok, there have no doubt been occasions when she (OR Serena for that matter) has lost the plot, the're human after all and not machines, but any sensible person will admit that they are two of the toughest cookies in the game, although perhaps in slightly different ways. Serena will for example rarely choke when serving for a match whereas Maria might DF. Maria's mental strenght consists to a large degree of the fact that she doesn't dwell on her mistakes. She may fuck up in a certain point or even a game, but she closes that chapter in her mind and is twice as competitive in the next game whereas many others can't put it out of their minds and continue to struggle.