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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 12:09 PM   #151
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
I really don't care what you call it, for people who are neither fans nor rabid haters of either player it's mind-numbingly boring, and is sytematically killing potentially interesting threads.
It isn't even a discussion. Just pointed something out.
But I see you've more to add..why don't you make a contribution to the thread, then?!
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 01:49 PM   #152
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
It isn't even a discussion. Just pointed something out.
But I see you've more to add..why don't you make a contribution to the thread, then?!
I've was going to when it first opened, but before I got the chance it was already derailed. I think the OP and several others made some interesting points, most of which I agree with.

The interesting thing is to ask to what extent the strong points can compensate for weak ones, and to what extent weaknesses can be reduced or eliminated through training. Of the top group of players, I'd say that Vika has the best prospects of reducing her weaknesses, mainly by improving her serve. I can't see any reason why she can't develop a substantially better serve than she currently has. Given the fact that she's so hard to beat with such a weak serve you have to wonder how good she could be with a good serve.

I also think Aga's game is still improving, and despite lacking any great power she is capable of hitting quite a few winners. In fact I think for her the most scope for improvement is in her tactics: I think she still sometimes tries to outfox her opponents when she could more easily just go for quick winners. And although she's never going to have a huge serve, it must be possible for her to get a bit more potency into her second serve than she currently has.

The challenge for Angie is to develop a bit more of a plan B to her game now that her opponents have had the time to work out her counterpunching game and come up with tactics to deal with it.

I think Sara already does an amazing job given her stature and relative lack of power. She has a beautiful game and can make life difficult for most opponents when conditions suit her (and even sometimes when they don't), but I really don't see what she can do against hard-hitters other than what she is already doing.

It goes without saying that Petra is currently underachieving. Even if you accept that she was maybe a little overhyped last year, I think it's clear that she has more to her game than she's shown this year. As long as she's motivated and patient enough she should be able to regain her spot in the top 2-3 at some point.

For both Sam and Na the main limitations are mental, and given their age it may be unrealistic to expect any great turnaround in their games, although I think there are signs that both of them are very capable of being mentally tough when they put their minds to it. I Na's case the problem has been a disturbing tendency to effectively give up when the chips are down, but I have the impression that she has shown a bit more fight lately. In Sam's case it's not that she gives up as such, as that she lacks the kind of killer instinct that allows most top players to dominate lower ranked players.

Finally, Caro needs to figure out how to add some judicious attacking play to allow her to get more out of her excellent defensive game. Contrary to what a lot of her critics claim, she does have a decent attacking game, as she showed in the Moscow final, but she often has trouble finding the right balance between attack and defense, and when in doubt she still tends to fall back too much on the tried and trusted defense. She needs to take more risks.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 04:54 PM   #153
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
What a surprise, another thread that started out promisingly is derailed into a Serena vs Masha pissing contest. Seriously, hasn't this debate been done to death on a thousand threads already.

Mods, this is killing TF for fans of other players more than anything else, do something about it, please?
The debate was civil.
And of course a discussion about "strengths" and "weaknesses" will include Serena.
She's one of the oldest and top WTA players around.
And players who share the top ranking positions will invariably be compared to her.
Even when she didn't occupy the top 10 ranks, she was always being discussed and used as
the WTA measuring stick.
Why the sudden indignation?

TF.com fans are a very strange and illogical brood.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 04:56 PM   #154
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
It isn't even a discussion. Just pointed something out.
But I see you've more to add..why don't you make a contribution to the thread, then?!
Nice justification bandabou.
People sure are odd around here.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 05:17 PM   #155
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

trying to find a top 10 list of most dominant seasons by female tennis players (OPEN ERA), but can't find one. Can someone create a new topic for this? or show me the link if it already exists. I'm sure Graf owns the #1 spot, but it would be interesting to see what the rest of the top 10 would look like.

thx
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 05:19 PM   #156
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
The debate was civil.
And of course a discussion about "strengths" and "weaknesses" will include Serena.
She's one of the oldest and top WTA players around.
And players who share the top ranking positions will invariably be compared to her.
Even when she didn't occupy the top 10 ranks, she was always being discussed and used as
the WTA measuring stick.
Why the sudden indignation?

TF.com fans are a very strange and illogical brood.
I never said that the tone of the discussion wasn't civil. So was my response. I simply pointed out that yet another thread that was supposed to be quite general in nature had narrowed within the space of the first page to a discussion about these same two players.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to posts about Maria and Serena on this thread, after all, they are top 10 players. But when 10 out of 11 pages are devoted to a discussion of just these two players, then sorry, I think that's out of all proportion. I actually hoped you guys would see that yourselves after a while and back off, which is why I waited a long time before commenting, but it just went on and on and on.

The "sudden indignation" as you call it is about fans of the most popular players crowding out more general discussion on threads that are supposed to be (also) about other players. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it is extremely frustrating to see thread after thread that you expect to provide an interesting discussion fizzle out in an endless series of nitpicking posts that are only interesting to the five or six people doing most of the posting.

A massive proportion of TF threads are about one or both of these two players. And that's fine, that comes with the turf of being a popular player. But is it too much to ask for a little restraint when you post on threads that are not specifically about them?
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 05:35 PM   #157
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
I never said that the tone of the discussion wasn't civil. So was my response. I simply pointed out that yet another thread that was supposed to be quite general in nature had narrowed within the space of the first page to a discussion about these same two players.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to posts about Maria and Serena on this thread, after all, they are top 10 players. But when 10 out of 11 pages are devoted to a discussion of just these two players, then sorry, I think that's out of all proportion. I actually hoped you guys would see that yourselves after a while and back off, which is why I waited a long time before commenting, but it just went on and on and on.

The "sudden indignation" as you call it is about fans of the most popular players crowding out more general discussion on threads that are supposed to be (also) about other players. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it is extremely frustrating to see thread after thread that you expect to provide an interesting discussion fizzle out in an endless series of nitpicking posts that are only interesting to the five or six people doing most of the posting.

A massive proportion of TF threads are about one or both of these two players. And that's fine, that comes with the turf of being a popular player. But is it too much to ask for a little restraint when you post on threads that are not specifically about them?
Your past posts have been enlightening and quite enjoyable, stromatolite.
But uncharacteristically, the selection of one phrase at the end of your previous post was a bit ... on the inaccurate side.

In essense I understand your point because there have been times when I've wondered why Serena fans must always contend with the plethora of illogical myths and stereotypical analysis thrown at out fav. Then I decided to just offer a counter-argument at every opportunity, since the nonsense will likely persist up until Serena retires.

Whether this is understood are not, Serena fans are true blue fans.
And if erroneous comparisons are being levied, of course we will attempt to correct these falsehoods.

So again...

How was this a "pissing contest"?
Debates are always contentious, regardless of the two players being compared.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:04 PM   #158
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
I never said that the tone of the discussion wasn't civil. So was my response. I simply pointed out that yet another thread that was supposed to be quite general in nature had narrowed within the space of the first page to a discussion about these same two players.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to posts about Maria and Serena on this thread, after all, they are top 10 players. But when 10 out of 11 pages are devoted to a discussion of just these two players, then sorry, I think that's out of all proportion. I actually hoped you guys would see that yourselves after a while and back off, which is why I waited a long time before commenting, but it just went on and on and on.

The "sudden indignation" as you call it is about fans of the most popular players crowding out more general discussion on threads that are supposed to be (also) about other players. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it is extremely frustrating to see thread after thread that you expect to provide an interesting discussion fizzle out in an endless series of nitpicking posts that are only interesting to the five or six people doing most of the posting.

A massive proportion of TF threads are about one or both of these two players. And that's fine, that comes with the turf of being a popular player. But is it too much to ask for a little restraint when you post on threads that are not specifically about them?
You know what I think..the only reason this Masha vs Serena-'discussion' would be bothering you this much is because you don't wanna hear that Serena is better than Masha in every aspect.

But hey it's cool. No problemos...the Serena-fans said what they had to say, so now we focus on the Errani's and Radwanska's of this world.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:11 PM   #159
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Your past posts have been enlightening and quite enjoyable, stromatolite.
But uncharacteristically, the selection of one phrase at the end of your previous post was a bit ... on the inaccurate side.

In essense I understand your point because there have been times when I've wondered why Serena fans must always contend with the plethora of illogical myths and stereotypical analysis thrown at out fav. Then I decided to just offer a counter-argument at every opportunity, since the nonsense will likely persist up until Serena retires.

Whether this is understood are not, Serena fans are true blue fans.
And if erroneous comparisons are being levied, of course we will attempt to correct these falsehoods.

So again...

How was this a "pissing contest"?
Debates are always contentious, regardless of the two players being compared.
Both you and bandabou seem to be making more of the "pissing contest" remark than I intended. Maybe it's just my foul mouth, but I don't think of that phrase as particularly offensive, but if you find it so I'm more than happy to retract it.

I take your point about the erroneous comparisons and your right to a rebuttal, but you do realise that the nonsense will continue whether or not you choose to rebut it? And even worse, that your rebuttals elicit further nonsense, because, rightly or wrongly, the opposing camp believes that they are also in the nonsense-rebutting business?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
You know what I think..the only reason this Masha vs Serena-'discussion' would be bothering you this much is because you don't wanna hear that Serena is better than Masha in every aspect.

But hey it's cool. No problemos...the Serena-fans said what they had to say, so now we focus on the Errani's and Radwanska's of this world.
As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans?

Although I'm not a hard-core Serena fan, I do admire and generally like her, even though she annoys me sometimes when she misbehaves.

Last edited by stromatolite : Nov 22nd, 2012 at 06:22 PM.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:30 PM   #160
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

If you're gonna list this one, you might just well add '04 Wimby too, no?!
Serena lost because she was out-played boo boo, Maria was doing everything better that day.



People never never never give Serena credit,Serena just came back from knee surgeon won Miami and got to the final of Wimbledon.But you never hear that do you? They never let you forget Maria won a slam ,after four yrs of shoulder surgeon!!!go figure...Different strokes i guess for different folks.

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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:49 PM   #161
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
Both you and bandabou seem to be making more of the "pissing contest" remark than I intended. Maybe it's just my foul mouth, but I don't think of that phrase as particularly offensive, but if you find it so I'm more than happy to retract it.

I take your point about the erroneous comparisons and your right to a rebuttal, but you do realise that the nonsense will continue whether or not you choose to rebut it? And even worse, that your rebuttals elicit further nonsense, because, rightly or wrongly, the opposing camp believes that they are also in the nonsense-rebutting business?
Thank you for the retraction.

And yes, I do realize that my rebuttals will likely be met with opposing rebuttals. However, to say nothing is even worse because then the perception is that the erroneous statements are correct. And honestly, I've taken the 'say nothing' approach for a couple of years on this board, and the stereotypes, myths, lies, etc...,became even more numerous and unbearable, with only a tiny handful of Serena fans rebutting the statements.
So remaining on the sideline solved nothing, and only stressed out my fellow Serena fans to boot.

I believe that as long as the debate is civil, discourse is fine...regardless of who and how many times Serena is compared to her constituents.
But that's just me.
That said, I'm open to alternatives methods with which to combat these ill-conceived comparisons, because as I stated earlier, it gets under my skin when her name is continuously brought up an infinite number of times as well by fans of her opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans?

Although I'm not a hard-core Serena fan, I do admire and generally like her, even though she annoys me sometimes when she misbehaves.
If I may offer a suggestion...

I often ignore the more ridiculous of claims posters make. And if a discussion does in fact turn into a real "pissing match", I ignore the conversation altogether and posts per the thread topic in an attempt to get the discussion back on track.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:51 PM   #162
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

All the hate
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:01 PM   #163
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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All the hate
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:08 PM   #164
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Thank you for the retraction.

And yes, I do realize that my rebuttals will likely be met with opposing rebuttals. However, to say nothing is even worse because then the perception is that the erroneous statements are correct. And honestly, I've taken the 'say nothing' approach for a couple of years on this board, and the stereotypes, myths, lies, etc...,became even more numerous and unbearable, with only a tiny handful of Serena fans rebutting the statements.
So remaining on the sideline solved nothing, and only stressed out my fellow Serena fans to boot.

I believe that as long as the debate is civil, discourse is fine...regardless of who and how many times Serena is compared to her constituents.
But that's just me.
That said, I'm open to alternatives methods with which to combat these ill-conceived comparisons, because as I stated earlier, it gets under my skin when her name is continuously brought up an infinite number of times as well by fans of her opponents.

If I may offer a suggestion...

I often ignore the more ridiculous of claims posters make. And if a discussion does in fact turn into a real "pissing match", I ignore the conversation altogether and posts per the thread topic in an attempt to get the discussion back on track.
Hard to argue with any of this.

If I have to quibble, the only thing would be that I don't think silence necessarily implies agreement. Sometimes it has the opposite effect, by denying opinions that should be self-evidently absurd the oxygen of attention. But you also said that you ignore ridiculous claims, so I'm pretty sure you understand that as well.
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Old Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:13 PM   #165
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Re: Strengths and weaknesses of Top 10

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
Both you and bandabou seem to be making more of the "pissing contest" remark than I intended. Maybe it's just my foul mouth, but I don't think of that phrase as particularly offensive, but if you find it so I'm more than happy to retract it.

I take your point about the erroneous comparisons and your right to a rebuttal, but you do realise that the nonsense will continue whether or not you choose to rebut it? And even worse, that your rebuttals elicit further nonsense, because, rightly or wrongly, the opposing camp believes that they are also in the nonsense-rebutting business?



As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans?

Although I'm not a hard-core Serena fan, I do admire and generally like her, even though she annoys me sometimes when she misbehaves.
Duly noted...
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