[Geisha]

Originally Posted by brickhousesupporter

Can someone point out to me matches with Venus at her peak. We have seen Serena absolutely crush top players.....where are those matches for Venus. When was Venus in scary form?

I'm not remotely picking Venus in this battle, but people calling her overrated...

2001. The last three tournaments of her season, she won. Sixteen matches. In those sixteen matches, she beat nine top ten players, and lost only one set.

6-2 6-2 vs. Tauziat (San Diego)
6-2 6-3 vs. Seles (San Diego)
6-3 6-1 vs. Clijsters (New York)
6-4 6-2 vs. Capriati (New York)
6-2 6-4 vs. Serena (New York)

Those/These look pretty convincing to me.

2002:

6-3 6-2 vs. Henin (Wimbledon)
6-3 6-3 vs. Clijsters (Stanford)
6-2 6-1 vs. Davenport (San Diego)
6-2 6-2 vs. Dokic (San Diego)
6-2 6-3 vs. Seles (New York)

2003:

6-3 6-3 vs. Henin (Melbourne)

2007:

6-1 6-3 vs. Sharapova (Wimbledon)

2009:

6-1 6-0 vs. Safina (Wimbledon)
6-0 6-1 vs. Dementieva (Stanford)

People trying to act like Venus is some local.

[Excelscior]

Originally Posted by azinna

Yep. At that stratospheric level the difference is mental and, in this case, emotional.

Just wanted to say: Serena's and Venus' respective peaks are, by definition, against other opponents (ask Maria to confirm). We've thus far been happy when they play well against each other.

....

Yeah, you always got the feeling that Venus hated playing her sister, while Serena enjoyed it (at the least, certainly didn't mind it, cause it definitely didn't show).

Obviously that mental make up affected their play against each other, as well as their overall careers (along with their talent, regimen on the court and resiliency).

[miffedmax]

Originally Posted by Geisha

I'm not remotely picking Venus in this battle, but people calling her overrated...

2001. The last three tournaments of her season, she won. Sixteen matches. In those sixteen matches, she beat nine top ten players, and lost only one set.

6-2 6-2 vs. Tauziat (San Diego)
6-2 6-3 vs. Seles (San Diego)
6-3 6-1 vs. Clijsters (New York)
6-4 6-2 vs. Capriati (New York)
6-2 6-4 vs. Serena (New York)

Those/These look pretty convincing to me.

2002:

6-3 6-2 vs. Henin (Wimbledon)
6-3 6-3 vs. Clijsters (Stanford)
6-2 6-1 vs. Davenport (San Diego)
6-2 6-2 vs. Dokic (San Diego)
6-2 6-3 vs. Seles (New York)

2003:

6-3 6-3 vs. Henin (Melbourne)

2007:

6-1 6-3 vs. Sharapova (Wimbledon)

2009:

6-1 6-0 vs. Safina (Wimbledon)
6-0 6-1 vs. Dementieva (Stanford)

People trying to act like Venus is some local.

Pretty much ALL of her matches against the Holy Virgin of Moscow.

(Though if Lena had to suck against anybody, it is best that it be Vee.)

[Upgraded]

I hope we'll be able to see peak Venus again.

[nemurenai]

Originally Posted by Upgraded

I hope we'll be able to see peak Venus again.

That seems unrealistic

But Venus has shown some extremely impressive form this year. May it continue and become more regular in 2013

[Smitten]

Originally Posted by Geisha

People trying to act like Venus is some local.

That is all.

[Sir Stefwhit]

^ Venus might not be a "local" but she sure she ain't no Serena Williams either...

People need get back in their time machines and fastforwad to reality and present day. Once upon a time back in 00-01 that kind off thinking was acceptable but now of days if u seriously think peak Venus > peak Serena u need to be institutionalized!

[pov]

IMO a peak V.Williams - without the big sis psychology that she strongly has - would almost always beat peak S.Williams. But that big sis thing made it tougher.

[MrProdigy555]

So, now we're just gonna snatch matches that they have played well in and call it their peak, despite the year? HUNTY CHILE! I cannot.

In that case Venus vs Azarenka (was it Dubai?) would also be PEAK Venus. I can't with you heffas.

[RVD]

Originally Posted by pov

IMO a peak V.Williams - without the big sis psychology that she strongly has - would almost always beat peak S.Williams. But that big sis thing made it tougher.

Between the years of 1998-2002 (early half), Venus had no problem with absolutely annihilating Serena.
Between mid 2002-2003, Serena actually became more competitive, grew into her role as a professional, and began winning their matches.
Then, between 2005-2009, they split their wins, with Serena only winning 1 more than Venus in their frequent meetings.

So where precisely is Venus's "psychology" getting in her way of winning?

I wish people would actually look at the reality of their meetings and judge based on that alone, because the "psychology" myth has gotten really tired at this point. Venus may well have felt bad, but so did Serena. And Venus certainly didn't feel bad enough to throw a match when facing Serena.

Both sisters went into meetings feeling apprehensive.
But both were professionals and played their hearts out far more times than not.

To suggest that Serena felt nothing is ludicrous.

There were many many times where Serena's face showed a LOT more pain than Venus's during their matches, and I swear I wanted to turn off the TV so many times because of it. But when Venus started laying the smack down, Serena would respond and play her sister as an opponent.
THAT is the only thing a big sister can do for her little sister who is also a professional.
Venus taught Serena to check her emotions at the door when facing any opponent, and Serena learned well.
So can we please dispense with the melodramatic embellishments?
It's an old and worn out record that is no longer in vogue.
This argument has run its course over the years, but still seems to pop up when younger fans join or become new fans of this sport.
However, the conclusion remains the same, regardless of how the question is asked.

Bottom line:
Their H2H record, slam count, and number of weapons, tell any logically minded person what the real deal is.
And that is that Serena is far and away the better athlete with the most weapons, more expansive game plan, and technical abilities.
And to put the icing on the cake, Serena has been improving and embellishing her skills since turning pro.
She has grown, and Venus stopped years ago.

Personally, I believe that Venus is very much underrated.
She also is burdened with an illness that no athlete would wish upon another.
However, there isn't another active WTA player that even measures up to Venus, other than Serena, in terms of peak greatness.

Peak Venus is definitely magnificent.
But peak Serena still wins by a measurable degree, and is simply another level of magnificence.

ENJOY!!

[MrProdigy555]

Originally Posted by RVD

Between the years of 1998-2002 (early half), Venus had no problem with absolutely annihilating Serena.
Between mid 2002-2003,Serena actually became more competitive, grew into her role as a professional, and began winning their matches.
Then, between 2005-2009, they split their wins, with Serena only winning 1 more than Venus in their frequent meetings.

So where precisely is Venus's "psychology" getting in her way of winning?

I wish people would actually look at the reality of their meetings and judge based on that alone, because the "psychology" myth has gotten really tired at this point. Venus may well have felt bad. but so did Serena. And Venus certainly didn't feel bad enough to throw a match when facing Serena.

Both sisters went into meetings feeling apprehensive.
But both were professionals and played their hearts out far more times than not.

To suggest that Serena felt nothing is ludicrous.

There were many many times where Serena's face showed a LOT more pain than Venus's during their matches, and I swear I wanted to turn off the TV so many times because of it. But when Venus stared laying the smack down, Serena would respond and play her sister as an opponent.
THAT is the only thing a big sister can do for her little sister who is also a professional.
Venus taught Serena to check her emotions at the door when facing any opponent, and Serena learned well.
So can we please dispense with the melodramatic embellishments?
It's an old and worn out record that is no longer in vogue.
This argument has run its course over the years, but still seems to pop up when younger fans join or become new fans of this sport.
However, the conclusion remains the same, regardless how the question is asked.

Bottom line:
Their H2H record, slam count, and number of weapons, tell any logically minded person what the real deal is.
And that is that Serena is far and away the better athlete with the most weapons, more expansive game plan, and technical abilities.
And to put the icing on the cake, Serena has been improving and embellishing her skills since turning pro.
She has grown, and Venus stopped years ago.

Personally, I believe that Venus is very much underrated.
She also is burdened with an illness that no athlete would wish upon another.
However, there isn't another active WTA player that even measures up to Venus, other than Serena, in terms of peak greatness.

Peak Venus is definitely magnificent.
But peak Serena still wins by a measurable degree, and is simply another level of magnificence.

ENJOY!!

this...is...beautiful.

[bandabou]

Well said, RVD..besides: the early lead that Vee had over Serena, might well have been because Serena couldn't step it up when facing Vee...because she could only see her sister, not an opponent.

[brickhousesupporter]

Originally Posted by Geisha

I'm not remotely picking Venus in this battle, but people calling her overrated...

2001. The last three tournaments of her season, she won. Sixteen matches. In those sixteen matches, she beat nine top ten players, and lost only one set.

6-2 6-2 vs. Tauziat (San Diego)
6-2 6-3 vs. Seles (San Diego)
6-3 6-1 vs. Clijsters (New York)
6-4 6-2 vs. Capriati (New York)
6-2 6-4 vs. Serena (New York)

Those/These look pretty convincing to me.

2002:

6-3 6-2 vs. Henin (Wimbledon)
6-3 6-3 vs. Clijsters (Stanford)
6-2 6-1 vs. Davenport (San Diego)
6-2 6-2 vs. Dokic (San Diego)
6-2 6-3 vs. Seles (New York)

2003:

6-3 6-3 vs. Henin (Melbourne)

2007:

6-1 6-3 vs. Sharapova (Wimbledon)

2009:

6-1 6-0 vs. Safina (Wimbledon)
6-0 6-1 vs. Dementieva (Stanford)

People trying to act like Venus is some local.

While those matches may look great on paper, the only one that I thought Venus was in shocking form was against Davenport in SanDiego, against the Russians. All those other matches featured Venus going on walkabout.

[RVD]

Originally Posted by MrProdigy555

this...is...beautiful.

Thank you MrProdigy555.

Originally Posted by bandabou

Well said, RVD..besides: the early lead that Vee had over Serena, might well have been because Serena couldn't step it up when facing Vee...because she could only see her sister, not an opponent.

Exactly my point.
Serena idolized Venus.
She wanted to be Venus.
Now maybe someone can tell me how a person can muster up the courage to defeat their sister-idol, because I'd love to hear it.

[Thirty All]

Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit

^ Venus might not be a "local" but she sure she ain't no Serena Williams either...

People need get back in their time machines and fastforwad to reality and present day. Once upon a time back in 00-01 that kind off thinking was acceptable but now of days if u seriously think peak Venus > peak Serena u need to be institutionalized!

Says you