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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:26 AM   #106
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
They implemented varying spins naturally into their game. They moved and played as if it were a clay court whereas Serena and Maria play hardcourt tennis on a clay court. No subtlety at all.



Movement is not about how many balls you're able to reach.. movement is not mostly about the speed at which you get from point A to point B.
Movement in tennis is mostly about footwork, about anticipating the trajectory of the ball, anticipating it's bounce on the surface before it even hits the ground and making that first step (the split step). Movement is about the small adjustments you make before the ball is struck. It's about moving naturally to the ball and putting yourself into the position to strike it from an optimal position every time.
A player can be incredibly slow but have great movement.

The entire match of Hingis v. Pierce in 2000 should be on youtube. Watch random points of the match and keep your eyes on Pierce's FEET. Footwork is what catches up most players who move poorly on clay. It's why most Americans are terrible on the surface. You can't just move on clay the way you move on a hardcourt. The footing is entirely different: you have a surface underneath you which moves.

Watch Serena or Maria on clay. It is so obvious that it's an unnatural surface for them that I cringe when I watch either of them (Maria more than Serena b/c Serena at times actually moves fairly well on the surface when she's not having a lazy day). There's a reason Maria was deemed a "cow on ice". And you're trying to tell me she magically gained innate natural footwork on the surface? Um...no.

So when you say that Sharapova (of all people) moved much better than Seles and Pierce, I think that's ridiculous. She may have been quicker and faster but watching Pierce on clay (when she was playing well and not like a bum) it makes me smile to see her move on the surface at times like she knows it and not like she's fighting it.
omg This whole post is absurd on so many levels
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:32 AM   #107
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:33 AM   #108
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by LBV. View Post
Did you watch any of Sharapova's matches at RG this year?
I hate her guts, but her movement and footwork on the surface were spectacular. She moved better on clay this year than she did on either grass or HC.
Against.... whom?
She moved better for sure than she ever has and props to her. But it's not comparable especially since no one in her draw was much of a challenge (Kanepi? Kvitova2012? Errani????)

Was there even anyone to push her? That's a lot different than assessing Pierce vs. Martina Hingis or Seles or Pierce against Graf.

She wasn't terrible at RG. But she definitely wasn't "elite" in her movement as some Sharapova fans would like some to believe. I actually have seen Serena move much better on clay in years past than Sharapova has this year.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:35 AM   #109
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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You're giving Pierce wayyyyy too much credit
Well I don't know why Pierce was brought up in the first place but I'm thinking about her runs in 94 and 2000
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:42 AM   #110
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Against.... whom?
She moved better for sure than she ever has and props to her. [b]But it's not comparable especially since no one in her draw was much of a challenge Kanepi? Kvitova2012? Errani????)

Was there even anyone to push her? That's a lot different than assessing Pierce vs. Martina Hingis or Seles or Pierce against Graf.

She wasn't terrible at RG. But she definitely wasn't "elite" in her movement as some Sharapova fans would like some to believe. I actually have seen Serena move much better on clay in years past than Sharapova has this year.
No shit Sherlock she fucking won it

Her movement was extremely good on clay this year. Her draw doesn't change that.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 06:42 AM   #111
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

death @ Aces vs. Martha stans
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 06:46 AM   #112
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Against.... whom?
She moved better for sure than she ever has and props to her. But it's not comparable especially since no one in her draw was much of a challenge (Kanepi? Kvitova2012? Errani????)

Was there even anyone to push her? That's a lot different than assessing Pierce vs. Martina Hingis or Seles or Pierce against Graf.

She wasn't terrible at RG. But she definitely wasn't "elite" in her movement as some Sharapova fans would like some to believe. I actually have seen Serena move much better on clay in years past than Sharapova has this year.
Oh please, Ivanovic, Stosur and Kuz were never going to beat Maria as well. Kvitova was not really bad against Pova, Maria was a lot better she played the perfect match and didn't give any chance to Petra.
You just complain about every draw, Maria on red clay season was undefeated you're not gonna underestimate her run when we know that she beat up on all the contenders few weeks before winning the French.
As for the draw you better get use to it, there are very few claycourters out there and the specialists are headcases. The FO isn't going to be different in the next years, accept it and move on.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #113
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
So them making an extra final really catapults them up that much? Despite Kuznetsova and Ivanovic wining just 1 claycourt title outside the FO in their entire career? I don't think Schiavone has any.

And, Sharapova, at least this year moved better than Seles and certainly WAY better than Mary Pierce, you have no idea what you're talking about. And, Seles could do things that Serena or Maria couldn't do on a claycourt? Like what? I think even Maria's volleys are better than Seles on ANY court. Seles didn't drop shot, slice, chip and charge, rush the net, etc., and neither did Pierce so I'd like you to point out what they did so much better? Seles was a natural flat and hard hitting baseliner who could create great angles from her positions where she liked to be at the corners of the court.

Pierce movement is not natural. She's super slow even with all the work she put in her movement, but maybe the clay covered up some of her flaws movement wise. And, again, Pierce was good on clay but her claycourt record is about as comparable as Maria or even Serena if you look at their stats.



I don't care how good Ana, Kuzzy or Schiavone are on clay or being natural claycourters. They won't win another FO and probably not even another title on clay. Serena and Sharapova will be FO contenders until they retire.

You don't have to be a claycourter to do well on clay anyway, just being your hardcourt game with some slight little adjustments. I don't think Sharapova changed her game that dramatically besides sliding more and being more comfortable with her movement.

You're pontificating like dsanders does and again proving you know NOTHING about tennis.
so many wrongs in so few sentences
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #114
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

Seeming as this thread has gone way I'm going to answer the thread title.

Serena's 2013 clay court strategy is up to her, and nothing any of you say (other than Debby because she's the only one who can draw her to this place) is going to matter, so really this belongs in a players forum, or not at all.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #115
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

Too lazy to go into the details, but Aces is right on almost everything.Maria improved on the surface, and she has now decent movement on clay (in comparison with the begining of her career) but she didn't win the FO this year by playing like a claycourter.Pierce is a good example : just cause she used to hit the shit out of the ball doesn't mean that's how she played and won on clay.She was able to adapt her game to the surface, varying the effects of the ball, using dropshots when needed etc...Generally speaking, her movement was one of her weakness, but when she was healthy and fit, she moved beautifully on the surface, knowing what she was doing.That's one of the reason why she was successful on it, beat some great players at the FO and won it twice, while someone like Davenport for example never managed to do it.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #116
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by homogenius View Post
Too lazy to go into the details, but Aces is right on almost everything.Maria improved on the surface, and she has now decent movement on clay (in comparison with the begining of her career) but she didn't win the FO this year by playing like a claycourter.Pierce is a good example : just cause she used to hit the shit out of the ball doesn't mean that's how she played and won on clay.She was able to adapt her game to the surface, varying the effects of the ball, using dropshots when needed etc...Generally speaking, her movement was one of her weakness, but when she was healthy and fit, she moved beautifully on the surface, knowing what she was doing.That's one of the reason why she was successful on it, beat some great players at the FO and won it twice, while someone like Davenport for example never managed to do it.

Exactly.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 01:17 PM   #117
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Against.... whom?
She moved better for sure than she ever has and props to her. But it's not comparable especially since no one in her draw was much of a challenge (Kanepi? Kvitova2012? Errani????)

Was there even anyone to push her? That's a lot different than assessing Pierce vs. Martina Hingis or Seles or Pierce against Graf.

She wasn't terrible at RG. But she definitely wasn't "elite" in her movement as some Sharapova fans would like some to believe. I actually have seen Serena move much better on clay in years past than Sharapova has this year.
Serena was even not able to go trough razzano so these arguments are really stupid
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #118
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by homogenius View Post
so many wrongs in so few sentences
Pay attention. Pierce is not a natural mover. She works very hard off the court to keep her movement in check and even then her lateral movement is like a snail but Sharapova isn't a natural mover either. Serena, Venus, Graf and Kim are natural athletes and natural movers. As in, they'd do well, in another sport if they didn't play tennis, namely track. Also, just because Pierce would do the occasional drop shot doesn't mean it was a huge part of her game or arsenal of success. Even Serena and Maria will throw in the occasional drop shot.

Pierce only won the FO ONCE btw, and made the final one other time. Her adaptations on clay aren't any noteworthy than Sharapova or Serena. Again, heavy flat and deep groundstrokes, and she had the time to set up, were the secrets to get success, not the occasional drop shot and varying the effects of the ball.

Davenport is a bad example because she hated European clay, and would skip the entire claycourt season at times. If she dedicated herself to making the little adjustments on clay she would've done well, considering Seles and Pierce did well on the surface and Davenport was a better ball striker than both of them. Look at someone like Kim Clijsters who would've been a beast on clay yet never put in the effort.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #119
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by doomsday View Post
Oh please, Ivanovic, Stosur and Kuz were never going to beat Maria as well. Kvitova was not really bad against Pova, Maria was a lot better she played the perfect match and didn't give any chance to Petra.
You just complain about every draw, Maria on red clay season was undefeated you're not gonna underestimate her run when we know that she beat up on all the contenders few weeks before winning the French.
As for the draw you better get use to it, there are very few claycourters out there and the specialists are headcases. The FO isn't going to be different in the next years, accept it and move on.
I agree with everything you said. Except that Kvitova this year was much worse than in 2011.
Sharapova has an RG title and no one can take that away from her.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #120
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

It's hilarious that people think Sharapova is a good slider on clay She basically just plants both feet and lunges into the clay. There is no technical emphasis on the right or leg left being used as the anchor for the slide, nor is there any emphasis on balance going into the slide.

What Sharapova has improved on in clay movement wise, is anticipating the direction of the ball, and thus her court positioning is much better on clay now. But she's hardly a natural or technically adept slider, when you compare her to Henin, Jankovic, Kuznetsova, Schiavone etc.

Pierce had lumpy footwork at the best of the times, but she understood the dynamics of sliding much more than Pova does on clay. Let's face it, movement for Pova on clay has always been entirely secondary.
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