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Old Oct 10th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #91
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by MrProdigy555 View Post
Yet they still won it. lol.

You're not making any sense....
He never makes sense, maybe Sharapova and Serena winning 3 consecutive slams is why he's so bitter and angry. Sharapova and Serena have better claycourt results than Kuzzy, Schiavone or Ivanovic. And, none of these players have been a contender since they won their lone, fluke title there.
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Old Oct 10th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #92
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

It was her head not her strategy that did her in.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #93
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Ivanovic? Has she even won a title outside of clay besides the FO? Has Kuznetsova even? And, besides their wins there, they've been irrelevant on the surface ever since. So, what makes them actually claycourters?

Remember, Mary Pierce and Seles aren't natural claycourters either. Flat, hard and heavy groundstrokes, just like Sharapova. Sharapova and Serena have won multiple titles on clay, and both even pushed Henin to 3 tough sets at the FO on her best surface, so please don't act like the fact that Schiavone, Ivanovic, and Kuzzy, who haven't done shit on clay besides their FO win are suddenly oh so much better than Serena or Sharapova in clay because they aren't.
Ivanovic won Berlin in 07 and has an additional final and qf (on debut no less) at RG - leave her out of this
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #94
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by MrProdigy555 View Post
Yet they still won it. lol.

You're not making any sense....
I am making sense. Sharapova won it with the weakest field I have ever seen at the French. Serena needed PeakRena form and a horrendous finals opponent to win it (btw what has she done on red clay since?)

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Ivanovic? Has she even won a title outside of clay besides the FO? Has Kuznetsova even? And, besides their wins there, they've been irrelevant on the surface ever since. So, what makes them actually claycourters?

Remember, Mary Pierce and Seles aren't natural claycourters either. Flat, hard and heavy groundstrokes, just like Sharapova. Sharapova and Serena have won multiple titles on clay, and both even pushed Henin to 3 tough sets at the FO on her best surface, so please don't act like the fact that Schiavone, Ivanovic, and Kuzzy, who haven't done shit on clay besides their FO win are suddenly oh so much better than Serena or Sharapova in clay because they aren't.
are you really trying to pump up the skills of Serena and Sharapova and compare them to Mary Pierce and Seles?
Watching Sharapova and Serena don't possess any variety spin-wise, both move like albatrosses on the court at times, and neither has world-class defense. Seles could do things on a claycourt that neither Serena nor Maria could ever dream of doing. Mary Pierce, I'm not even sure why you're bringing her up but her movement alone on the surface is more natural than either Serena or Maria.

Ivanovic, Schiavone and Kuznetsova have all made 2 finals at Roland Garros btw so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Anyone with half a tennis brain can look at Sharapova/Serena on clay and look at Ana/Fran/Sveta on clay and notice the clear difference.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #95
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Ivanovic? Has she even won a title outside of clay besides the FO? Has Kuznetsova even? And, besides their wins there, they've been irrelevant on the surface ever since. So, what makes them actually claycourters?

Remember, Mary Pierce and Seles aren't natural claycourters either. Flat, hard and heavy groundstrokes, just like Sharapova. Sharapova and Serena have won multiple titles on clay, and both even pushed Henin to 3 tough sets at the FO on her best surface, so please don't act like the fact that Schiavone, Ivanovic, and Kuzzy, who haven't done shit on clay besides their FO win are suddenly oh so much better than Serena or Sharapova in clay because they aren't.
Word. It's not like Ivanovic is adept with a slice or possessing a versatile backhand. Schiavone is a natural clay court player, but so is Errani. Sveta is good on all surfaces when she plays well, I'll give you that. But Maria and Serena (when she won RG) played really well. They gave themselves bigger margins and were moving as well as they ever have.

Sharapova slides better than many of the elite players these days. Like it or not.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 01:31 AM   #96
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
I am making sense. Sharapova won it with the weakest field I have ever seen at the French. Serena needed PeakRena form and a horrendous finals opponent to win it (btw what has she done on red clay since?)



are you really trying to pump up the skills of Serena and Sharapova and compare them to Mary Pierce and Seles?
Watching Sharapova and Serena don't possess any variety spin-wise, both move like albatrosses on the court at times, and neither has world-class defense. Seles could do things on a claycourt that neither Serena nor Maria could ever dream of doing. Mary Pierce, I'm not even sure why you're bringing her up but her movement alone on the surface is more natural than either Serena or Maria.

Ivanovic, Schiavone and Kuznetsova have all made 2 finals at Roland Garros btw so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Anyone with half a tennis brain can look at Sharapova/Serena on clay and look at Ana/Fran/Sveta on clay and notice the clear difference.


So them making an extra final really catapults them up that much? Despite Kuznetsova and Ivanovic wining just 1 claycourt title outside the FO in their entire career? I don't think Schiavone has any.

And, Sharapova, at least this year moved better than Seles and certainly WAY better than Mary Pierce, you have no idea what you're talking about. And, Seles could do things that Serena or Maria couldn't do on a claycourt? Like what? I think even Maria's volleys are better than Seles on ANY court. Seles didn't drop shot, slice, chip and charge, rush the net, etc., and neither did Pierce so I'd like you to point out what they did so much better? Seles was a natural flat and hard hitting baseliner who could create great angles from her positions where she liked to be at the corners of the court.

Pierce movement is not natural. She's super slow even with all the work she put in her movement, but maybe the clay covered up some of her flaws movement wise. And, again, Pierce was good on clay but her claycourt record is about as comparable as Maria or even Serena if you look at their stats.


I don't care how good Ana, Kuzzy or Schiavone are on clay or being natural claycourters. They won't win another FO and probably not even another title on clay. Serena and Sharapova will be FO contenders until they retire.

You don't have to be a claycourter to do well on clay anyway, just being your hardcourt game with some slight little adjustments. I don't think Sharapova changed her game that dramatically besides sliding more and being more comfortable with her movement.

You're pontificating like dsanders does and again proving you know NOTHING about tennis.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #97
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
Word. It's not like Ivanovic is adept with a slice or possessing a versatile backhand. Schiavone is a natural clay court player, but so is Errani. Sveta is good on all surfaces when she plays well, I'll give you that. But Maria and Serena (when she won RG) played really well. They gave themselves bigger margins and were moving as well as they ever have.

Sharapova slides better than many of the elite players these days. Like it or not.

Yeah, but Kuznetsova is like I said, a player who's game translates to all surfaces and just makes minor adjustments on clay. As with Serena, Capriati, Ivanovic and now Maria. None of them are natural claycourters, especially like you said with Ana and her local backhand.

Schiavone and Errani are natural claycourters but they don't have much of a chance against a big hitter on their day.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 02:14 AM   #98
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
And, Sharapova, at least this year moved better than Seles and certainly WAY better than Mary Pierce
Are you serious?

Do you know what "movement" in tennis consists of?
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 02:35 AM   #99
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Are you serious?

Do you know what "movement" in tennis consists of?
So what are the things Seles and Pierce did on clay that Serena and Maria couldn't? A tweener like Pierce's? Two handed groundies like Seles'?
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 02:41 AM   #100
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Are you serious?

Do you know what "movement" in tennis consists of?
Sharapova moved incredibly well on clay this year, especially off that backhand side. I don't know what you were watching, because it was very noticeable.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 02:57 AM   #101
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by sickfalsetto View Post
So what are the things Seles and Pierce did on clay that Serena and Maria couldn't? A tweener like Pierce's? Two handed groundies like Seles'?
They implemented varying spins naturally into their game. They moved and played as if it were a clay court whereas Serena and Maria play hardcourt tennis on a clay court. No subtlety at all.

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Sharapova moved incredibly well on clay this year, especially off that backhand side. I don't know what you were watching, because it was very noticeable.
Movement is not about how many balls you're able to reach.. movement is not mostly about the speed at which you get from point A to point B.
Movement in tennis is mostly about footwork, about anticipating the trajectory of the ball, anticipating it's bounce on the surface before it even hits the ground and making that first step (the split step). Movement is about the small adjustments you make before the ball is struck. It's about moving naturally to the ball and putting yourself into the position to strike it from an optimal position every time.
A player can be incredibly slow but have great movement.

The entire match of Hingis v. Pierce in 2000 should be on youtube. Watch random points of the match and keep your eyes on Pierce's FEET. Footwork is what catches up most players who move poorly on clay. It's why most Americans are terrible on the surface. You can't just move on clay the way you move on a hardcourt. The footing is entirely different: you have a surface underneath you which moves.

Watch Serena or Maria on clay. It is so obvious that it's an unnatural surface for them that I cringe when I watch either of them (Maria more than Serena b/c Serena at times actually moves fairly well on the surface when she's not having a lazy day). There's a reason Maria was deemed a "cow on ice". And you're trying to tell me she magically gained innate natural footwork on the surface? Um...no.

So when you say that Sharapova (of all people) moved much better than Seles and Pierce, I think that's ridiculous. She may have been quicker and faster but watching Pierce on clay (when she was playing well and not like a bum) it makes me smile to see her move on the surface at times like she knows it and not like she's fighting it.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:05 AM   #102
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
They implemented varying spins naturally into their game. They moved and played as if it were a clay court whereas Serena and Maria play hardcourt tennis on a clay court. No subtlety at all.



Movement is not about how many balls you're able to reach.. movement is not mostly about the speed at which you get from point A to point B.
Movement in tennis is mostly about footwork, about anticipating the trajectory of the ball, anticipating it's bounce on the surface before it even hits the ground and making that first step (the split step). Movement is about the small adjustments you make before the ball is struck. It's about moving naturally to the ball and putting yourself into the position to strike it from an optimal position every time.
A player can be incredibly slow but have great movement.

The entire match of Hingis v. Pierce in 2000 should be on youtube. Watch random points of the match and keep your eyes on Pierce's FEET. Footwork is what catches up most players who move poorly on clay. It's why most Americans are terrible on the surface. You can't just move on clay the way you move on a hardcourt. The footing is entirely different: you have a surface underneath you which moves.

Watch Serena or Maria on clay. It is so obvious that it's an unnatural surface for them that I cringe when I watch either of them (Maria more than Serena b/c Serena at times actually moves fairly well on the surface when she's not having a lazy day). There's a reason Maria was deemed a "cow on ice". And you're trying to tell me she magically gained innate natural footwork on the surface? Um...no.

So when you say that Sharapova (of all people) moved much better than Seles and Pierce, I think that's ridiculous. She may have been quicker and faster but watching Pierce on clay (when she was playing well and not like a bum) it makes me smile to see her move on the surface at times like she knows it and not like she's fighting it.
Did you watch any of Sharapova's matches at RG this year?
I hate her guts, but her movement and footwork on the surface were spectacular. She moved better on clay this year than she did on either grass or HC.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:16 AM   #103
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

Don't bother with AcesHigh on this.

I guess Pierce has a twinkle in her eye when she's on a clay court, and you can tell she was born on it or something.

Whereas Sharapova and Serena are "fighting it." Ok...
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:23 AM   #104
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

Serena should just work on not getting so flustered when she sets foot on the grounds of Roland Garros. She's still bothered by the fact that the crowd never really liked her, especially after 2003.

Also, this is my only two cents going into this argument that seems to be brewing:

Ana, Svetlana, and Francesca are all better natural claycourters than Serena, Maria, and Li (who, surprisingly, has not come up in this conversation yet is almost identical in style of play to the other two). However, the final piece of the puzzle on clay is mental toughness and stamina. That's where Serena and Sharapova rise above Svetlana, Francesca, and particularly Ana. Even though Ana has an additional RG final, Berlin title, and RG QF to her name than Sharapova (Serena, btw, has reached the quarters in France in 2001, 2004, 2007, 2009, and 2010. She's not really a bad clay court player), she may not end up being the better clay courter in the end than Maria.

Mental toughness cannot be undervalued on the surface, and Serena and Maria always have the potential to go big in Paris.
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Old Oct 11th, 2012, 03:24 AM   #105
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Re: Serena's 2013 Clay Court Strategy

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They implemented varying spins naturally into their game. They moved and played as if it were a clay court whereas Serena and Maria play hardcourt tennis on a clay court. No subtlety at all.
You're giving Pierce wayyyyy too much credit
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