On court coaching is crap - Page 8 - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Sep 30th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #106
country flag terjw
Senior Member
 
terjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,987
terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobito View Post
Serena, Venus, Justine & Kim



Fair point and valid if we were just talking about the first couple of years after the introduction of on-court coaching. But in the years since its introduction these players retired and came back, suffered serious illnesses, repeated injuries, got older and still weren't losing when they were in good enough physical shape to make a semi.

In the 30 odd years that I've been watching tennis, I have never seen a generation of players fail so abysmally to challenge their predecessors at grand slams. Now it might be that they are all just crappy players. But there is another possibilty, that they are so used to their coach coming on to tell them what to do and motivate them that they are lost when they have to work it out for themselves.
Whether two years or longer - it makes no difference. Your stat says nothing about OCC and it won't correct itself because of the way you chose the criteria.

All the stat says 2 years after OCC was introduced is that Kim in her comeback before she got plagued with injuries and Serena still to this day were/are just too good for the other players. Simple as that. Nothing more nothing less. To pretend that has anything to do with OCC - well I actually think it's dishonest. It would be like me trying to give a stat to argue that one handed backhand is better than two handed backhand based on Steffi's results against players with two handed backhands and being selective what matches to include.

Of course - if we included all matches in slams rather than just SF and F we get a worse figure because Serena, Venus, Justine and Kim did actually lose to other players in earlier rounds. But hey what the heck. The name of the game was to prove OCC hindered players at slams. I'm sure you searched long and hard to find the best cut-off point as to what matches to include in slams to pretend it's OCC.

It doesn't work that the stat will correct itself in years to come and after the first two years because of the selective way you chose this stat. Your actual figure will only get better for you from now on to pretend this stat means anything. Because the only matches from now on that will count are going to be Serena winning or losing a SF or F of a slam vs someone else and of course Serena is favourite against anyone else. When Serena retires - this misleading stat will stay as it is for ever more because there won't then be any matches between players using OCC and those that don't.
__________________
Caroline Wozniacki

Chris Evert, Steffi Graf, Kim Clijsters
terjw is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Sep 30th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #107
country flag bobito
Tennis 'toonist
 
bobito's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,189
bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by terjw View Post
I'm sure you searched long and hard to find the best cut-off point as to what matches to include in slams to pretend it's OCC.
Nah, I've got better things to do. Finals and semi-finals were the first and only matches I looked at. It seemed reasonable for a couple of reasons 1. To consider all rounds would have involved over 2500 matches, in many cases involving players who I would have no idea if they used OCC or not. 2. You would expect finals and semis to be between reasonably evenly matched players.

Quote:
Of course - if we included all matches in slams rather than just SF and F we get a worse figure because Serena, Venus, Justine and Kim did actually lose to other players in earlier rounds.
I dout it, not by much at any rate. Sure they lost a few but they also won a helluva lot of GS matches over that period. By only looking at finals and semis I was ignoring all the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th round matches that they won over the same period.

However, in response to your point that the stat is indicative of nothing more than Serena, Justine , Kim & Venus being a helluva lot better than everyone else, I did the same for finals and semis of MPs and P5s since the 2008 roadmap. I've also adjusted the results for slam finals and semis to cover the same period (though the %age isn't much different if you include 2007). Oh, and before you ask why I've only included MPs and P5s and not smaller events, it's because the strength of the field at PMs and P5s makes for a reasonable comparison with slams.

PMs & P5s 2008-12
F&SF won by the player who used OCC - 7 (33%)
F&SF won by the player who did not use OCC - 14 (67%)

Grand slams 2008-12
F&SF won by the player who used OCC - 2 (9%)
F&SF won by the player who did not use OCC - 21 (91%)

So yes, the players who eschewed OCC were better players overall. But the players who used OCC were 3½ times more successful in big matches against them when OCC was available than they were when it wasn't.

Last edited by bobito : Sep 30th, 2012 at 09:56 PM.
bobito is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 1st, 2012, 12:09 AM   #108
country flag terjw
Senior Member
 
terjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,987
terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobito View Post
PMs & P5s 2008-12
F&SF won by the player who used OCC - 7 (33%)
F&SF won by the player who did not use OCC - 14 (67%)

Grand slams 2008-12
F&SF won by the player who used OCC - 2 (9%)
F&SF won by the player who did not use OCC - 21 (91%)

So yes, the players who eschewed OCC were better players overall. But the players who used OCC were 3½ times more successful in big matches against them when OCC was available than they were when it wasn't.
I'm sure Serena was the prominant player out of the four that featured most in these matches. Justine and Kim weren't playing during their retirement years and had very limitted schedules when they came back. So what that tells me is Serena plays better at slams but lost more at other tournaments. I thought everyone here believed Serena geared herself up for the slams and wasn't totally focused on the other tournaments using them in order to peak at the slams. Although she does seem to be fired up for these regular tournaments recently. But I lost count how many times I heard "Serena doesn't care about .... she only cares about slams".

But hey no. She really did care and only lost because her opponents had OCC.
__________________
Caroline Wozniacki

Chris Evert, Steffi Graf, Kim Clijsters
terjw is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 1st, 2012, 12:46 AM   #109
country flag bobito
Tennis 'toonist
 
bobito's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,189
bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute bobito has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by terjw View Post
I'm sure Serena was the prominant player out of the four that featured most in these matches. Justine and Kim weren't playing during their retirement years and had very limitted schedules when they came back. So what that tells me is Serena plays better at slams but lost more at other tournaments. I thought everyone here believed Serena geared herself up for the slams and wasn't totally focused on the other tournaments using them in order to peak at the slams. Although she does seem to be fired up for these regular tournaments recently. But I lost count how many times I heard "Serena doesn't care about .... she only cares about slams".

But hey no. She really did care and only lost because her opponents had OCC.
Serena won 6 and lost 3, the other three won 8 and lost 4. So no, the stats are not dominated by Serena's results or somehow skewed by her not caring at non GS tournaments. Frankly these days if Serena doesn't care then she's unlikely to show up at all, witness her non-appearance (again) in Beijing.
bobito is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 1st, 2012, 02:30 AM   #110
country flag Stamp Paid
Sir Camaraderie
 
Stamp Paid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Absolute Terror
Posts: 47,032
Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute Stamp Paid has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beny View Post
Serena yes. I remember a match against Sharapova she won 1 and 1. I think it was Miami, but for some reason I think they were playing on clay maybe it was the Charleston match..whatever

When Maria called for the coach, Serena did too, her father came and told her to "play to Maria´s better shot - the backhand".

And Serena said sth like that she will never call for the coach first, but if her opponent calls for a coach, she calls too
King Richard >>>>>
__________________

██████████████████ʘ
Ashe. Gibson. Williams. Williams.
Stamp Paid is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 2nd, 2012, 07:16 AM   #111
country flag terjw
Senior Member
 
terjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,987
terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute terjw has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobito View Post
Serena won 6 and lost 3, the other three won 8 and lost 4. So no, the stats are not dominated by Serena's results or somehow skewed by her not caring at non GS tournaments. Frankly these days if Serena doesn't care then she's unlikely to show up at all, witness her non-appearance (again) in Beijing.
Well if you give a breakdown - I'd be able to show what a ridiculous skewed twisted stat this is. Serena these days is more likely not to play than lose in SF and F. But that was not the case for the period you provided that stat. So let's get that out the way as to you trying to pretemd her losses were due to OCC.

OK Serea is 9/21 - the others account for 12. But it's mainly Serena's results at slams so you are comparing by and large the other three at big WTA tournaments with Serena at slams.

Kim is the only other one who has faired well at slams in a small period she just focused on them. She's mainly won them or gone out before the SF. Would like to see her breakdown. But it's pretty likely when she would have a long break f\rom retirement or a rest or from injury that she won't win a SF or F of the first event she comes back to. Not to mention if the loss was due to retirement with injury - OCC is pretty irrelevant.

So you are comparing the big 4 with the other players and the 2 who have been winning slams have been specifically targetting slams (plus Venus who targeted Wimbledon) and you are trying to pretend that's down to OCC.
__________________
Caroline Wozniacki

Chris Evert, Steffi Graf, Kim Clijsters

Last edited by terjw : Oct 2nd, 2012 at 07:27 AM.
terjw is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 2nd, 2012, 08:06 AM   #112
country flag roguedandelion
Senior Member
 
roguedandelion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 622
roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all
Re: On court coaching is crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggly View Post
Rafael looks to Toni Nadal like a lost boy in every match.
It's hilarious how many rules don't apply to Nadal
roguedandelion is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 2nd, 2012, 08:18 AM   #113
country flag roguedandelion
Senior Member
 
roguedandelion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 622
roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all roguedandelion is a name known to all
Re: On court coaching is crap

idk I think it's ok. I know a lot of male player who definitely benefit from it.

There's something wrong with the women's game, but I think it's more a chance let down in true talents than this coaching stuff. I'm still waiting for the next Justine, and now the next Kim. If Azarenka is the future
roguedandelion is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios