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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:21 PM   #31
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisickinator View Post
It's spelled Šafářová. WTA, ITF and ATP are just ignorant towards other languages.
How does that inverted circumflex thingy turn "r" into "zho".... that makes zero sense with the Roman orthography!?
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #32
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by LethalLaura View Post
Okay, but the manner that person spoke to me in was very rude.

Apologies.
I certainly didn't want to be that rude. However, that's how flippant, arrogant and disrespectful you came off (as POV indicated), so I responded appropriately.

No biggie. Nonetheless, sorry about that.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #33
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
How does that inverted circumflex thingy turn "r" into "zho".... that makes zero sense with the Roman orthography!?
Hmmm . maybe it doesn't WikiP has Lucie Šafářová (Czech pronunciation: [ˈlutsɪjɛ ˈʃafaːr̝ovaː])
Czech/Slovak chart.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #34
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
I certainly didn't want to be that rude. However, that's how flippant, arrogant and disrespectful you came off (as POV indicated), so I responded appropriately.

No biggie. Nonetheless, sorry about that.
It's fine, i agree. I did come across as arrogant.

Glad we sorted this out.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #35
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
How does that inverted circumflex thingy turn "r" into "zho".... that makes zero sense with the Roman orthography!?
It's because, in czech, there is a small difference between "žo" (which should be really transcribed as "zho") and "řo" which is more like "rzho". Though the difference is important, for example: řádný = proper; žádný = no one.

That "inverted circumflex" sort of softens the respective letter. So "c" is always "ts" (unless it is "ch" which is treated as one letter and pronounced as in german "machen"), but "č" is "cz" (like in "czech"); similarly "s" is pronounced as in english, but "š" should be transcribed as "sh" etc. To sum it up: these all should be treated as different letters because of the very different sounds, however western media somehow come up with the brilliant idea that these small things above letters are irrelevant. (I know: in fact, it's not a brilliant idea; only pure laziness.)

Once you learn how to pronounce letters and syllables, you are going to be able to pronounce virtually every czech word more-or-less properly. However, you need to distinguish the letters which should be distinguished, i.e. use the diacritic.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #36
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

In German it's pronounced "Lucy Safarova" (stressed on the 'o' - http://translate.google.com/#en/de/Lucie%20safarova)



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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #37
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

I saw a youtube video on Czech pronunciation and I'm really glad that I don't have to learn the language, they made it look awfully complicated for foreigners.

Be glad that Czech women like Řičicová, Čvančarová or Šporcrová are not on the tour
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #38
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by pov View Post
Yes . . . and no. Since none of the major orgs seem to care enough to ensure correct pronunciation media-wide, I'd guess that players just give up and go with what's most common. I'd also guess that the PR trainers on the tour advise them to do that. Otherwise players would end up correcting media, umpires, etc almost constantly. So IMO the responsibility is with the orgs. The just call 'em something approach is ironic as most native English speakers hate to have their names mispronounced.
Nope, that is not true at all. Players just don't go with the norm. With the like of Safina, her common pronunciation is how Sa-fee-nah then she changed it to sah-fee-nuh which is the right one. like Dementieva the norm is De-men-she-va, but she chose De-ment-ye-vuh.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #39
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by dencod16 View Post
Nope, that is not true at all. Players just don't go with the norm. With the like of Safina, her common pronunciation is how Sa-fee-nah then she changed it to sah-fee-nuh which is the right one. like Dementieva the norm is De-men-she-va, but she chose De-ment-ye-vuh.
I'm glad you know so many players personally that you get to know it's not true. What I said was "I guess. One thing that I do know is that both the players you mentioned changed their requested media pronunciation at least twice. And according to a few announcers, that's not uncommon.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #40
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

I have studied some Czech and it's really not that complicated, folks. The symbol over many letters that looks like an upside down circumflex is called a hachek. It's pronounced Loo-tsyeh Sha-fa-rzh-o-vaah. The "c" is prounced like "ts" so that Hradecka is "Hra dets ka" unless there is a hachek over the "c" like in Andrea Hlavačková so that the "č" is pronounced like English "ch" as in church (not the hard ch like in "chrome" or "christian") Incidentally, ch in Czech (as in Berdych) is pronounced like the hard "ch" as in "chrome" except with a tad bit more aspiration kind of like a hard "ch" in German. If there are any Czechs in here who can correct me, please do so!
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:01 PM   #41
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan_S View Post
It's because, in czech, there is a small difference between "žo" (which should be really transcribed as "zho") and "řo" which is more like "rzho". Though the difference is important, for example: řádný = proper; žádný = no one.

That "inverted circumflex" sort of softens the respective letter. So "c" is always "ts" (unless it is "ch" which is treated as one letter and pronounced as in german "machen"), but "č" is "cz" (like in "czech"); similarly "s" is pronounced as in english, but "š" should be transcribed as "sh" etc. To sum it up: these all should be treated as different letters because of the very different sounds, however western media somehow come up with the brilliant idea that these small things above letters are irrelevant. (I know: in fact, it's not a brilliant idea; only pure laziness.)

Once you learn how to pronounce letters and syllables, you are going to be able to pronounce virtually every czech word more-or-less properly. However, you need to distinguish the letters which should be distinguished, i.e. use the diacritic.
Informative. Thank you.

As for diacritical marks getting lost in translation; can we just get real here and not blame it on pure western laziness? I mean, we all know why e.g. Navrátilová got stipped of her accents aigus back in the 7-bit character days of, eh, ...ca. 1985?, when she got computerised by the WTA and her new alter-ego, Navratilova, was (re)-introduced to the virtual world.

Even today the WTA computer can't do accents, diacritical marks, and other decorative thingies; ergo it's Safarova... (And hey, even if some journalist does do a double-check on the spelling, it may just be that the website/publisher/whatevah can't handle "inverted circumflex r's" and whatnot, due to a limited character in the font they're using...)

BTW, what's up with the Czechification (-ovaification?) of player names... Billie Jean Kingová, Mauresmová, Clijstersová!?!? Are they, like, altering the names just because they don't comply with Czech surnames standards?
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:05 PM   #42
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius View Post
Be glad that Czech women like Řičicová, Čvančarová or Šporcrová are not on the tour
As for me, I'm glad to meet a Czech guy here That's b/c I've always had problem how to pronounce the letter ĕ e.g. in the surname Štĕpánek. Should we read Shtyepanek or rather Shtepanek?
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #43
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

Quote:
Originally Posted by treufreund View Post
The symbol over many letters that looks like an upside down circumflex is called a hachek.
It's called "háček", literally meaning "a small hook"

Quote:
Originally Posted by treufreund View Post
It's pronounced Loo-tsyeh Sha-fa-rzh-o-vaah.
Spot on, except for the second syllable in the surname. It should be Sha-faa-rzh-o-vaah, because the original is "Šařová".
The accent above "a" indicates longer pronunciation

E.g. in "Navrátilová" the first 'a' is pronounced short (no accent above it), the other two are pronounced long

As for the rare "ř" letter - which you transcribed as "rzh" - here's a funny, but quite useful tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhp2Von-KpY&lr=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by treufreund View Post
The "c" is prounced like "ts" so that Hradecka is "Hra dets ka"
The "c" is pronounced exactly the same like the German "z" in words like zentrum, Zittau, Zwinger, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by treufreund View Post
The "č" is pronounced like English "ch" as in church (not the hard ch like in "chrome" or "christian")Incidentally, ch in Czech (as in Berdych) is pronounced like the hard "ch" as in "chrome" except with a tad bit more aspiration kind of like a hard "ch" in German.


Note: it's Hlaváčková (i.e. the middle 'a' is pronounced long just as the last 'a')
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #44
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
As for me, I'm glad to meet a Czech guy here That's b/c I've always had problem how to pronounce the letter ĕ e.g. in the surname Štĕpánek. Should we read Shtyepanek or rather Shtepanek?
Hi . Do you know some Russian? If yes, the 'tĕ' syllable is pronounced exactly like "те" in the Russian verb "потеря́ть" (to lose).

So the first option is more accurate.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:38 PM   #45
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Re: How to pronoune Safarova?

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Originally Posted by Petronius View Post
Hi . Do you know some Russian? If yes, the 'tĕ' syllable is pronounced exactly like "те" in the Russian verb "потеря́ть" (to lose).
So the first option is more accurate.
Thanks.
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