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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #121
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Clijsters28 View Post
Other than clay when did Justine conquer the big hitters. The 2007 U.S Open when she beat Serena and Venus and won the title is the only time. Her other hard court slams, her 2 Year End titles, and her Olympic Gold are when Serena and Venus didnt play or lost early. I dont see Henin proving anything other than that she is a much better clay courter than Hingis, which everyone knows anyway, and that she was lucky to peak on clay in a weak clay era where none of the other top players (Serena, Venus, Hingis, Davenport, Sharapova, Mauresmo, Capriati) had clay as their best surface so her with it her being her best found it easy to beat them and dominate, and the ones who found it their best like Kuzntesova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, were much weaker players who she owned anyway.
What a load of majestic crap I especially love when you say that her hardcourt slams came when Venus didn't play, as if Venus has won a slam other than grass since 2001 and she was the player to beat.

She did spank your precious hard-hitting Clijsters numerous times, dominated Davenport, has a 7-3 head to head against Sharapova (positive head to head even if you exclude clay), spanked my Mary (the ultimate hardhitter) and it was not her fault Serena didn't play or reach many finals during her peak period
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #122
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

mistymore again spouting outright lies
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #123
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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What a load of majestic crap I especially love when you say that her hardcourt slams came when Venus didn't play, as if Venus has won a slam other than grass since 2001 and she was the player to beat.

She did spank your precious hard-hitting Clijsters numerous times, dominated Davenport, has a 7-3 head to head against Sharapova (positive head to head even if you exclude clay), spanked my Mary (the ultimate hardhitter) and it was not her fault Serena didn't play or reach many finals during her peak period
Davenport leads Venus's H2H.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #124
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
That said, I don't think that Hingis was "over-rated", but that she was unfortunately a victim of 'circumstances'.
In other words, Big Babe tennis came along just when she hit her stride as a professional, and she was passed up unceremoniously.
Truth be told, Davenport was one of the first to exploit the weaknesses in Hingis' game, and then Serena came along and completely shut the door.
Hingis has even record against Williams sisters...

If you want to look for single player who put Hingis in the pastures, it was Capriati. The idea that "power" as such was something particularly troublesome for Martina is a myth.

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In fact, I'd base Hingis' game on what I'd term 'anticipation'.
That is, her game was founded on limiting the opponent's shot selection, anticipating the opponent's shot, and reacting/predicting accordingly. And she was very successful at it.
However, when Big Babe players came along, and she employed such tactics, she lacked the fire power to overcome her opponent's heavier, and faster shot selections/replies. Especially if the returns came back heavier and/or well placed.
Also, Hingis lacked another essential ingredient during the Big Babe change-over---

A serve.

To those who enjoyed the 'serve & volley' style of tennis, she was one of the greatest.
Nothing wrong with Hingis' serve, really. Her second serve was pretty poor, but she had a good first serve with usually high percentage (~70). I don't understand S&V comment, she seldom played S & V. What did Hingis in was quite simply burnout - she played a lot in her teens and unlike SOME #1 players, she loved all that representing, charities etc committments. It was taxing life and she couldn't maintain it. If you look at Hingis at ~2001-2002, and compare to that of ther peak few years earlier, it's so obvious how much she had declined as a player - movement gone, loopy short forehand, no longer taking any risks with her first serve.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 08:47 PM   #125
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
That had nothing to do with Davenport's supposed superiority (which there was none, Hingis had clearly better year and led the rankings by very large margin) and everything to do with certain incident in certain Roland Garros final.
That is your opinion. My opinion is it had more to do with Davenport winning 2 major events that year vs only 1 for Hingis, Hingis losing 1st round at Wimbledon 6-2 6-0 while Davenport performed solidly and well at all the slams, and Davenport going 4-0 vs Hingis that year. Combine all that and little wonder people thought Davenport was the best player in the World and the true Player of the Year at years end. By contrast what is Hingis's edge, making 2 more slam finals in events when both players lost to the exact same person (Graf at RG, Serena at U.S Open), atleast 1 of which Davenport would have almost surely won had they met. Sorry not good enough.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:02 PM   #126
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
That is your opinion. My opinion is it had more to do with Davenport winning 2 major events that year vs only 1 for Hingis, Hingis losing 1st round at Wimbledon 6-2 6-0 while Davenport performed solidly and well at all the slams, and Davenport going 4-0 vs Hingis that year. Combine all that and little wonder people thought Davenport was the best player in the World and the true Player of the Year at years end. By contrast what is Hingis's edge, making 2 more slam finals in events when both players lost to the exact same person (Graf at RG, Serena at U.S Open), atleast 1 of which Davenport would have almost surely won had they met. Sorry not good enough.
Sigh. Hingis was 1200 points ahead of Davenport in the rankings (6000 vs 4800). Every instance which released tennis rankings listed Hingis as #1. But after Roland Garros, there was just no way in hell she would have been given any kind of prestigious award that year. Fallout from that was enormous, much bigger than say Serena in 2009.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #127
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Sigh. Hingis was 1200 points ahead of Davenport in the rankings (6000 vs 4800). Every instance which released tennis rankings listed Hingis as #1. But after Roland Garros, there was just no way in hell she would have been given any kind of prestigious award that year. Fallout from that was enormous, much bigger than say Serena in 2009.
Who cares about ranking points. Ranking points have Wozniacki at #1 for almost 2 years, and have her spending 5 times as much time at #1 as Venus Williams, aka do you believe Wozniacki was the best tennis player in the World for almost 2 years, and was the best tennis player in the World many times more often than Venus Williams was. That was my whole point, ranking points mean diddley squat. Wozniacki and Safina took a huge dump all over their worth, and they are too soiled to have any relevance ever again, even though the problems began long before them, ever since they got rid of the divisor ranking system there have been problems. So to argue who was really the best player that year you will have to do better than just point out ranking points, if that is your only argument you can make, you have already lost.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:22 PM   #128
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
The bolded points are somehow supposed to help the argument she was so super great and a potential GOAT as her fans potray her, and not in anyway overrated?

For the record the only slam victories Hingis arguably threw away were the 99 French and 2002 Australian Open. The 2000 U.S Open she would have lost to Davenport most likely had she beaten Venus, even if you argued she threw that match away (which I would disagree with anyway).

As for her early retirement, considering she was on decline for a good 2 or 3 years already at that point, it is a moot point. Anything significant she was going to achieve had already occured at that point, hence why she retired. She was no dummy. People dont do what ifs about Henin retiring in 2008 at only 25, and Henin despite being older was 10x more likely to win future slams had she continued at that point then Hingis had she continued past late 2002.
You don't think she should have won the 2000 French Open? She was on a 7-match winning streak against Pierce and hadn't dropped a set against her. She would have faced Conchita in the final who did beat her on clay in Berlin that year, but Hingis owned her otherwise and it would have been a winnable match for her.

She was the favorite against Capriati at the 2001 Australian Open final as well. I would say she blew the 1997/1999/2000 French; 2001/2002 Australian.

As far as her being overrated, she definitely has some scary stans here and there that hurt her legacy more than anything. I think she's rated just fine by unbiased tennis fans, but she definitely underachieved IMO.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #129
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
Who cares about ranking points. Ranking points have Wozniacki at #1 for almost 2 years, and have her spending 5 times as much time at #1 as Venus Williams, aka do you believe Wozniacki was the best tennis player in the World for almost 2 years, and was the best tennis player in the World many times more often than Venus Williams was. That was my whole point, ranking points mean diddley squat. Wozniacki and Safina took a huge dump all over their worth, and they are too soiled to have any relevance ever again, even though the problems began long before them, ever since they got rid of the divisor ranking system there have been problems. So to argue who was really the best player that year you will have to do better than just point out ranking points, if that is your only argument you can make, you have already lost.
That analogy makes no sense whatsoever. Before Henin's retirement in 2008, the best players all played normal schedules.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #130
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
That analogy makes no sense whatsoever. Before Henin's retirement in 2008, the best players all played normal schedules.
Your analogy makes no sense. Wozniacki and Kvitova both played full schedules last year, and 99.99% of people still think the wrong person ended the year as compueterized #1, which is why Kvitova won every Player of Year award there was.

The WTA went to a new ranking system sometime in 1998 I believe it was. They used to have a ranking system which was far more accurate, it was called the divisor system, your best results were either divided by 12 or the number of events you played, bigger events were prioritized, and you got bonus points for beating opponents of a higher rank. That was abolished for the current system where you take your best 17 tournaments, can throw out many results if you play more than 17, receive no bonus points for beating players of a higher rank, slams are worth only twice as much as Premier events, small events like New Haven have been awarded Premier status, and generally sucks in everyway.

In the last 15 years how many times did the right person end the year ranked #1. Lets see:

1998: Davenport. Hingis probably deserved it. NO
1999: Hingis. Davenport definitely deserved it. NO
2000: Hingis. Major NO
2001: Davenport. Major NO
2002: Serena. Yes
2003: Henin. Yes
2004: Davenport. NO
2005: Davenport. NO
2006: Henin. Yes, although some debate even this.
2007: Henin. Yes
2008: Jankovic. NO
2009: Serena. Yes
2010: Wozniacki. NO
2011: Wozniacki. NO

So I counted 5 yes and 9 no. From 1975 to 1997 under the divisor system it would be more like 20 or 21 yes and 2 or 3 no. Some of that is the inconsistency of the players since Henin retired in 2008, but alot of that is the new and terrible ranking system. You can disagree with me if you like but it doesnt matter, most people feel that way as well, and that is all that matters.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:39 PM   #131
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by fedhingis67 View Post
You don't think she should have won the 2000 French Open? She was on a 7-match winning streak against Pierce and hadn't dropped a set against her. She would have faced Conchita in the final who did beat her on clay in Berlin that year, but Hingis owned her otherwise and it would have been a winnable match for her.

She was the favorite against Capriati at the 2001 Australian Open final as well. I would say she blew the 1997/1999/2000 French; 2001/2002 Australian.

As far as her being overrated, she definitely has some scary stans here and there that hurt her legacy more than anything. I think she's rated just fine by unbiased tennis fans, but she definitely underachieved IMO.
Throwing away a title doesnt mean not winning when you went in as a contender. Yeah going in she had good chances at those events, but in the end she was outplayed and well beaten by someone else. How is that throwing it away. By your logic we could say nearly every player could have twice or more as many slams as they did.

2000 French- was outplayed by Pierce. Pierce choked away the 2nd set and still won decisively in the 3rd. Yes she usually beats Pierce but on this day Pierce was the better player.

2001 Australian- yeah was favored over Capriati, but Capriati outplayed her that day. Capriati would win all 3 of her matches with Hingis that year, so in hindsight the expected result anyway.

1997 French- was totally overpowered by Majoli in final. Came in short on match play with horse riding accident, was well below her best, and did well to even make the final. If anyone blew it, Seles blew that semifinal match with Hingis which she should have won but threw away with that awful 11th game of the 2nd set.

I guess we have different meanings of what is throwing something away.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #132
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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A quote like that proves just how she is overrated. Her fans definitely overrate her, they make her sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Which is fine by me, since I think sliced bread as an innovation is the most overrated thing ever.

But yeah, if she had worked half as hard as some others and won 5 Slams beating the players who started to dominate her, I would have worshipped her. As it stands, she was a great player who was in the right places at the right times.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #133
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Was not a fan of her personality as she was incredibly abrasive towards many players but OVERRATED absolutely not. She had an amazing tennis brain, terrific backhand and her skill level was outstanding. She may not have won a Slam after 99 but was constantly a factor. Had she worked harder when she was on top of the game AND in particular on her serve (Graf suggested this was her big weakness when she developing) then she could well have won many more Slams and been a major factor.

She was quite lazy as the dominant no.1 player in terms of working her ass off to become a better athlete in the off season and seemed quite content to just sit on her laurels and wait for the other players to catch up to her which they did very quickly. Davenport was probably the first one who really found ways to hit through her as the two were constantly playing each other in finals. For me Hingis only seemed to start working really hard off the court post 2000 and at that stage there were sooooooo many quality players in the game that upsets as such were bound to happen. You could easily list off 10 players that were capable of beating her on any given day such was the quality of the field in and around 2000 especially those with big weapons like Davenport, Williamses, Capriati, Mauresmo, Henin, Clijsters and Pierce. If you consider where Aga is right now and she's like a poor mans version of Hingis then you have to conclude that the game didn't really ever pass Hingis by she just got surrounded by bigger harder hitting players that improved their level and consistancy in order to outhit Hingis before she could outwit them.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #134
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Sharapova is 5-1 vs Davenport, what is Hingis against her? What was Hingis's record against Sharapova, Mauresmo, Clijsters, Henin, and Serena combined when she tried her comeback, something like 1-12. Remember her fans were predicting her to roll to dominance of the womens game in her routine since without Venus and Serena at their peaks anymore it would supposably be easy. Instead she only briefly made it to a bottom end top 10 (before quickly falling back out of that), got owned by Patty Schnyder and her 30 mph shots, lost in slams in only 2 years of appearances to granny near retirement Sugiyama, baby Azarenka, Razanno, Granville, some other nobody, allowed all the top players she had capatilized on in their youth to rectify their final H2Hs with her (Mauresmo, Clijsters, Henin) by continous ownage of her. Most of all she got to struggle to be a top 20 player while seeing a player shorter and skinnier than her dominate the womens game those couple years (Henin), and got to end her career being busted for cocaine use. The accuracy of her fans assessment of her abilities proven once again.
What a delusional post You are obviously a Hingis troll so why waste my breath? But I'll give it a go.

FIRST of all she never got a chance to play FAT-Rena in her comeback, a match Hingis almost certainly would have won. And she gave peak-Pova an absolute ass-whooping.

It was only Henin, Mauresmo, and Clijsters she truly struggled against in her comeback, although against all 3 of them she had at least one match where she was up a break in the third set. Not bad considering she was a shadow of her former self.

And you will not find ONE Hingis fan that expected her to "dominate" anything in her comeback, in fact most of the board and even some Martina fans doubted she would return to the top 10, given how long her break was and how serious her injuries were. And despite not playing anywhere near her best level, or honestly giving it anywhere near her best effort, she still returned to the top 10 in 6 months with victories against most of her major rivals. Not bad.

But what does her comeback have to do with this thread? Like it or not Hingis was THAT BITCH for at least 4 consecutive years, with the ONLY player to EVER really and truly have her number being the greatest of all time Steffi Graf. Even still, Hingis notched a couple of wins against Graf and served for the match against her in a Slam final. All other major winners Hingis either owns or is within 1 match in the h2h.
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #135
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LCS View Post
Old school Williams fans still bitter. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by brickhousesupporter View Post
That line no longer works....bitter about what? They have surpassed her in every conceivable way!
No kidding!

We know who won the war, check that; all sane people know who won the war!

Martians
Cappy Freaks
Povans
Bell-Gim Lovers

we aren't thinking about any of you anymore...we thinking about another Martina entirely.


__________________
If your fave's coach isn't Richard Williams, that's just her first problem...

I was there when the ALL BLACKS won the World Cup in 2011!!!

"I don't know that I changed all that much. They just found somebody worse." - Aging tennis bad boy Jimmy Connors, referring to John McEnroe, in 1984.

There can never be too many "Sister Slams!"
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