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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #226
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

I think she definitely maximized what she had, overachieved. She dominated in a weak field with no real competitors.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #227
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by nemurenai View Post
Yeah, anyone who doesn't appreciate imagined ability/doesn't agree with you has something wrong with them.
Imagined ability? Only an idiot or a troll would deny Hingis' immense ability.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 09:56 PM   #228
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Of course, glass can be half full. You could just as well say that Hingis gave problems to power players who generally swept aside other players w/ similar games. Just how bad was Martina against power players?

Hingis vs
Pierce: 10-6
Seles 15-5
Venus 11-10
Serena 6-7
Davenport 11-14
Capriati 5-4
Mauresmo 7-7
Clijsters 4-5
Dementieva 4-3
Henin 2-2
Graf 2-7

So it seems that pretty much only player of note she had lopsided record against was Graf.
Pierce and post stabbing Seles were slow as molasses which is why Hingis owned them. Hingis was the master at exploiting their mobility. Your point is merited but if every decent power player minus one or two that exists wins roughly half your matches with you, you arent going to win many slams.

Also while it is true it might be unfair to Hingis as she herself wasnt always at her peak when those players were in their prime years she generally lost. Davenport she lost about 70% of their 98-2000 matches, and lost 5 or 6 in a row at one point, and in this case 98-2000 was when both were in their primes at the same time. Davenport also is not as good as prime Venus, prime Serena, or prime Henin, probably more powerful than prime Henin, but prime Henin is still far more powerful than Hingis, and light years more mobile and a better competitor than Davenport (in fact more mobile and a better competitor than prime Hingis as well, in addition to being much more powerful). Venus she lost all but 1 match to in 2000-2001 when Venus began winning slams. Serena she was starting to get thumped by badly by late 2001-early 2002 when they last played, although Hingis was past her best by then, but Serena was starting to become Serena for the first time ever. Clijsters she lost all 4 matches to in 2006-2007, definitely not prime Hingis, but this was not the same Clijsters as 2003-2005 or 2009-2011 at all either. Henin she lost both her comeback matches too, and the only set she won Henin gagged a huge 2 break lead, the other 4 sets were all easy for Henin. Capriati she lost all 4 matches to once Capriati returned to fitness and contention starting in 2001, even though this was probably not Hingis at her best anymore.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #229
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Quote:
Hingis vs
Pierce: 10-6
Seles 15-5
Venus 11-10
Serena 6-7
Davenport 11-14
Capriati 5-4
Mauresmo 7-7
Clijsters 4-5
Dementieva 4-3
Henin 2-2
Graf 2-7
Sharapova vs Hingis 2-1
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:55 PM   #230
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Sammo View Post
Imagined ability? Only an idiot or a troll would deny Hingis' immense ability.
Imagined to the extent that it's exaggerated, I mean. Which exaggeration would only be put forth by an idiot or a troll.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:28 AM   #231
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Of course, glass can be half full. You could just as well say that Hingis gave problems to power players who generally swept aside other players w/ similar games. Just how bad was Martina against power players?

Hingis vs
Pierce: 10-6
Seles 15-5
Venus 11-10
Serena 6-7
Davenport 11-14
Capriati 5-4
Mauresmo 7-7
Clijsters 4-5
Dementieva 4-3
Henin 2-2
Graf 2-7

So it seems that pretty much only player of note she had lopsided record against was Graf. It's of course debatable whether some of those mentioned are "power players". Lots of people nowadays seem to think that Graf would be blown off the court by ITF event level players, for example.



Teenage Martina was viewed as somewhat lazy in her practice. It was obvious during 1998 she was clearly out-of-shape much of the year. She improved her fitness regime considerably after that, culminating in 2001 AO where she was in great shape and outlasted Serena in a gruelling duel. I recall that in some point she claimed to have tried enhanced weight training but that it screwed her stroke mechanics. Tennis players in general often don't like changing things.

Huge biceps don't necessarily make tennis players hit harder. In fact some of the hardest hitters are pretty skinny.



I'd answer that question if I understood what exactly is what you're asking. I don't have original statlines around anymore.
I'm not pulling facts out of a hat here, Timariot.
Okay, just look at Hingis' slam record from 1999 to 2002, "Grand Slam singles finals" heading.She lost every single slam she entered during that time period, where she played the likes of Graf, Davenport, Serena, and Capriati:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martina_Hingis

Now are you trying to honestly tell me that there wasn't an obvious problem with "the genius" Hingis?
Come on now, just look at her win/loss stat between 1999 and 2002.

This tells me, and everyone else who watched tennis during that time, that Hingis got waxed shamelessly by these great returners, and heavy hitters. Just about all, if not all, of these ladies are considered big babe tennis players.
I'm honestly amazed that you find this difficult to accept, as it doesn't detract from her greatness at a time when she did in fact win a great many titles, aside from the slams.
Anyway, enough of that issue.

And in reference to my previous queries...
I think it's very disingenuous of you to pretend that the question weren't clear enough, or that you don't have the stats, when you are clearly a huge Hingis fan. But that's okay, as I made the points I wanted to convey, without any of them being effectively disputed.
For the most part, it was a nice debate regardless.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:37 AM   #232
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

here's my take on Hingis. She's like the female John McEnroe. both were extremely gifted with amazing hands. they came on like gang-busters, and shared a haughty attitude and an aversion to training. once the pressure and the opposition rose against Martina, she folded. She felt entitled and when the power game exposed her weaknesses, instead of improving, she ran away.

Hingis and McEnroe - two spoiled brats who reveled in dominance until it was threatened. when the going got tough, they got going.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:39 AM   #233
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

i honestly believe that if Martina had Navratilova's mentality, she could be up there as one of the best ever. I think her being.. "boy crazy" distracted her.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:42 AM   #234
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Underrated. She's not better than Serena, obviously. But she had a phenomenal career, and still somehow people want to paint her as a transitional #1. They fail to appreciate her 209 weeks at #1, over 40 titles, 9 doubles and 1 mixed title, and the WAY she plays. Her game was ridiculously unique, and she was just unfortunate to come up against Serena and Venus in 2001/2002, and suffer from injuries. Part of her problem was that she wasn't a hard worker, for sure. But people who think that Davenport, Sharapova, or anyone from this generation not named Henin/Venus/Serena are better than Martina...dont understand anything.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #235
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Underrated. She's not better than Serena, obviously. But she had a phenomenal career, and still somehow people want to paint her as a transitional #1. They fail to appreciate her 209 weeks at #1, over 40 titles, 9 doubles and 1 mixed title, and the WAY she plays. Her game was ridiculously unique, and she was just unfortunate to come up against Serena and Venus in 2001/2002, and suffer from injuries. Part of her problem was that she wasn't a hard worker, for sure. But people who think that Davenport, Sharapova, or anyone from this generation not named Henin/Venus/Serena are better than Martina...dont understand anything.
well said. hingis was a nuanced player. when she started getting beaten by brute force over talent, her ego was damaged
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #236
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by NashaP View Post
I think she definitely maximized what she had, overachieved. She dominated in a weak field with no real competitors.
bullshiz. you didn't follow tennis then. the competition was just as tough then as now. hingis was a true phenom.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:46 AM   #237
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

So now Hingis was "waxed shamelessly" from 1999-2002? Seriously? She made a ton of GS semis and finals in that time, and almost every single match she lost was competitive, in fact many of them were chokes. This shows a decline and a mental weakness on Hingis' part (along with stamina issues IMO) -- most of those losses were the result of her own decline in form.

And once again, almost every time Hingis lost a match, EVER, it was to a more powerful opponent. Such are the breaks when you're 5'6 and hit 90mph first serves. That does NOT mean Hingis was over-powered -- there are other ways to lose a tennis match, you know. In fact I can't think of a single match from 96-01 where someone's power was totally uncontrollable for Martina, or made her cough up a bunch of moonballs that barely clipped the net. Never happened, because Hingis' ability to fight off someone's power was the absolute LEAST of her problems. For the millionth time I'll repeat a point nobody has refuted, because it makes total sense: it was Hingis' own play that cost her -- she was generally less imaginative, more error prone, and mentally weaker as the years went on. Her h2h records show it was more effective to try to outlast Hingis and run her around than it was to try and blast the ball by her. Her fitness was a HUGE issue, and if the match was close enough, Hingis would often choke.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #238
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
So now Hingis was "waxed shamelessly" from 1999-2002? Seriously? She made a ton of GS semis and finals in that time, and almost every single match she lost was competitive, in fact many of them were chokes. This shows a decline and a mental weakness on Hingis' part (along with stamina issues IMO) -- most of those losses were the result of her own decline in form.

And once again, almost every time Hingis lost a match, EVER, it was to a more powerful opponent. Such are the breaks when you're 5'6 and hit 90mph first serves. That does NOT mean Hingis was over-powered -- there are other ways to lose a tennis match, you know. In fact I can't think of a single match from 96-01 where someone's power was totally uncontrollable for Martina, or made her cough up a bunch of moonballs that barely clipped the net. Never happened, because Hingis' ability to fight off someone's power was the absolute LEAST of her problems. For the millionth time I'll repeat a point nobody has refuted, because it makes total sense: it was Hingis' own play that cost her -- she was generally less imaginative, more error prone, and mentally weaker as the years went on. Her h2h records show it was more effective to try to outlast Hingis and run her around than it was to try and blast the ball by her. Her fitness was a HUGE issue, and if the match was close enough, Hingis would often choke.
im not a legend fan, but the only time i can recall her choking is the 99 french final against Graf, and the Aussie final against Capriati - (in which Jenny played out of her mind). otherwise - she was solid.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #239
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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im not a legend fan, but the only time i can recall her choking is the 99 french final against Graf, and the Aussie final against Capriati - (in which Jenny played out of her mind). otherwise - she was solid.
2000 USO against Venus up 5-3 30-15 miffs an overhead smash Hits four UEs when serving for match
USO 99 Hingis had turned the match around in 2nd set, Serena was looking tired, Hingis gets two set points and misses two sitter forehands
Obviously you mentioned the Graf/Capriati matches. But look at the 2001 AO final for instance. Hingis didn't choke in the sense that she didn't blow a lead. But since when does Hingis make 40 unforced errors in a match like that against an opponent she is 5 wins 0 losses against? Similar thing happened against Pierce at RG, Martina just played horrible against someone she normally dominated. I would consider those to be chokes as well -- something was preventing her from playing her standard level of tennis, and it was between the ears IMO. Even Wimbledon 2000 QF against Venus, Lindsay said she has NEVER seen Martina play so passively.

But even if we just take the GS semifinals/finals where Martina failed to serve out the match or squandered set/match points, FOUR matches in less than three years definitely indicates a trend.

EDIT: To add to this I will say her 2002 AO final loss was very predictable. In the warm-up Hingis beat Clijsters, but not before blowing a HUGE lead in the first set (5-0?) and almost doing the same thing in the third set. Then in the AO semis, she nearly blew a 5-1 lead against Seles, missing a smash that would have given her multiple MPs. If we include her 2nd career, which wasn't even a full two years, her list of chokes more than doubles. So this was clearly an issue practically born out of her 99 RG final, because she was mentally VERY tough before that match. From that point on, this issue started to snowball, getting worse every year.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 01:10 AM   #240
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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And once again, almost every time Hingis lost a match, EVER, it was to a more powerful opponent.
Yes that is why she lost over half of her combined career matches to Clijsters, Henin, and Mauresmo. Those 3 were known as such big "power" players, LOL! She also lost three times to Patty Schnyder, and had a couple other 3 setters vs her, and Schnyder in power hitting makes Hingis look like Serena. Even back in 1998 she was having trouble with Schnyder before Schnyder fell off the map entirely in 1999 for a few years. She has also lost at Wimbledon to Dokic, Ruano Pascual and to Sugiyama, more tall huge power players for you. She has numerous losses to the power hitting Coetzer at 5"1. She has lost most of her matches on clay to Conchita "moonb.....errr I meant powerball" Martinez. Dont make an exagerrated blanket statement that cant be backed up with facts.

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