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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:12 AM   #181
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Venus also held 3-1 H2H against Hingis in their last 4 games (1on hard court, and 2 on clay).
And clay is where Hingis' game style should eclipse Venus'...but didn't.
Nonsense. Clay was her worst surface. As it is, Hingis won her last match against Venus.

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
If their is nothing wrong with Hingis' serve, then her second serve shouldn't be a problem either.
Yet you just admitted that her second serve was "pretty poor".
Venus has just as poor second serve. Is it widely agreed serve is her major weakness?

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
You can't use the 'she was burned out' excuse, because it was her choice to play an ungodly number of events to maintain her #1 ranking.
Another myth widely circulated and completely untrue. Most of the time, she had a gigantic lead in points and didn't need to play middling events, which often were not even counted in her points totals! She played lots of events because it was asked from her, WTA needed top players to promote events and she respected her committments. Quite unlike certain unnamed Serena Williams, I might point out.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:31 AM   #182
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Yeah:

That's why she was No 1 for almost four years.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:36 AM   #183
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
For me, considering Hingis's best year was when Serena was barely playing and the Belgians were still in juniors, it just seems weird to put them in the same generation. I mean, the supporting cast in Hingis's best years were ALL members of the 90s Generation (Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Novotna, etc.).

I don't know, it is tricky. And actually, I have to say my instinct would've been to group Davenport as part of the 00s Generation, even though logically I guess if Hingis is part of the 90s Generation then Davenport would have to be too.
I always love this.

Cause it's amazing how Davenport never catches any flack for her measly three slams that she won in the same period Legend was winning hers.

It's always the same press fucks in a thread about Legend.

Legend was not overrated. She was lazy and unmotivated which led to her failing to improve and build on the early success of her career.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 07:53 AM   #184
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Funny how many biased people fail to accept that Martina, Venus and Serena played great matches and their Win/Loss ratio is nearly equal.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 09:10 AM   #185
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Hingis has her special spot in the history of the sport. She is not one of the greatest achievers, but certainly one of the brightest talents ever. That's why people will remember her for long time to come.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #186
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

no she isn´t, for me she is one of the best players in the world and it doesn´t matter how many grandslams she has, she was a genius on court, too bad i couldn´t follow her at her prime because i was a little child
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 10:53 AM   #187
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Overrated for people loving power hitting and ball bashing tennis and why not brutal tennis. Even with a bit of coke, she would beat many of the Top 30 of nowadays with her brains. And also best technique ever
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:09 AM   #188
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Tough case...she's what Caroline Wozniacki tried and so far has failed to become: a MEGA consistent player who wasn't gonna beat herself, but who was gonna force you to come up with the goods. That's why she was probably the worst match-up for Venus.

Hingis was consistent. You knew what you were gonna get from her...but at the majors after '99, she had no extra gear and she could and did get beaten by opponents who were in better form.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #189
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Tough case...she's what Caroline Wozniacki tried and so far has failed to become: a MEGA consistent player who wasn't gonna beat herself, but who was gonna force you to come up with the goods. That's why she was probably the worst match-up for Venus.

Hingis was consistent. You knew what you were gonna get from her...but at the majors after '99, she had no extra gear and she could and did get beaten by opponents who were in better form.
Better physique and body you mean : but after all most of them were average at tactical side, technical side and grace on court ! If you want to see truck drivers to dominate the whole thing, your choice ! I'd rather see Ferrari's
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:17 AM   #190
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Nonsense. Clay was her worst surface. As it is, Hingis won her last match against Venus.
No, grass is. Obviously slow surfaces are where she stands the greatest chance of eclipsing Venus.

Quote:
Venus has just as poor second serve. Is it widely agreed serve is her major weakness?
Venus' second serve is a liability but not to the extent of Martina's. When has Martina ever hit a second serve ace in her entire career? Venus has done that to save break points from time to time.


Quote:
Another myth widely circulated and completely untrue. Most of the time, she had a gigantic lead in points and didn't need to play middling events, which often were not even counted in her points totals! She played lots of events because it was asked from her, WTA needed top players to promote events and she respected her committments. Quite unlike certain unnamed Serena Williams, I might point out.
Serena played a full schedule until her knee injury in 2003 and was number one for the most of the time she was winnign slams. Very weak snipe.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:38 AM   #191
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
No, grass is. Obviously slow surfaces are where she stands the greatest chance of eclipsing Venus.


Venus' second serve is a liability but not to the extent of Martina's. When has Martina ever hit a second serve ace in her entire career? Venus has done that to save break points from time to time.



Serena played a full schedule until her knee injury in 2003 and was number one for the most of the time she was winnign slams. Very weak snipe.
I actually think clay might be her worst surface. Probably equal with grass though. Although clay helped soak the power of her opposition, it slowed down her already slow shots and gave her and her opponents more time to set up. She also had crappy/lazy movement. Kinda reminds me hsieh su wei actually. But it kinda comes down to who shes playing/match ups you know.

Also your wrong about hingis' 2nd serve. She HAS served 2nd serve aces! Watch her final against davenport in zurich. My computers too slow to watch the video but yeh. Hard to believe! But she did have kind of a crappy serve although her first serve was decent and she did have a nice motion!
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #192
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Nonsense. Clay was her worst surface. As it is, Hingis won her last match against Venus.
Okaaaay...
However, none of this changes the fact that Venus won 3 out of of 4 of their last 4 matches.
Also, given the fact that Venus was playing with an injured left wrist most of 2006, I would imagine it wouldn't be all that difficult for Hingis to win. But again, how does your argument change the fact that Venus won 3 of their last 4 matches if Hingis was such a great tactician who could easily hang with the big hitters? Nothing you've presented so far supports your assertions.

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Venus has just as poor second serve. Is it widely agreed serve is her major weakness?
Are you kidding me? Are you seriously comparing Venus' serve to Hingis?
And also, do you not realize that you contradicted yourself concerning Hingis' 1st serve in your previous post?
You stated that she had a 70% 1st serve record, yet you also go on to say that she no longer took any chances with it
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Nothing wrong with Hingis' serve, really. Her second serve was pretty poor, but she had a good first serve with usually high percentage (~70). I don't understand S&V comment, she seldom played S & V. What did Hingis in was quite simply burnout - she played a lot in her teens and unlike SOME #1 players, she loved all that representing, charities etc committments. It was taxing life and she couldn't maintain it. If you look at Hingis at ~2001-2002, and compare to that of ther peak few years earlier, it's so obvious how much she had declined as a player - movement gone, loopy short forehand, no longer taking any risks with her first serve.
Furthermore, you still haven't answered my initial question about Hingis 1st serve percentage against the big babes such as Venus, Davenport, Serena, and Capriati.
The fact is, her 1st serve is ineffective against these returners (her 2nd serve, even worse), which was only one factor in her series of loses to the aforementioned players.
The other reason is that she just could not handle the pace and depth of the base-line players.
Why is this so hard to understand? And why is this even now an argument?
It takes nothing away from her past achievements.
But facts are facts, and even the commentators stated this constantly, during Hingis' matches with the Big Babes.
If you are in fact a Hingis fan and supporter you should know all of this better than anyone.

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Another myth widely circulated and completely untrue. Most of the time, she had a gigantic lead in points and didn't need to play middling events, which often were not even counted in her points totals! She played lots of events because it was asked from her, WTA needed top players to promote events and she respected her committments. Quite unlike certain unnamed Serena Williams, I might point out.

Come on now...
Okay, never-mind.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this last line of logic.
I'm going to sleep now.

One thing's certain...
You're definitely a Hingis fan.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #193
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by tracytracy22 View Post
I actually think clay might be her worst surface. Probably equal with grass though. Although clay helped soak the power of her opposition, it slowed down her already slow shots and gave her and her opponents more time to set up. She also had crappy/lazy movement. Kinda reminds me hsieh su wei actually. But it kinda comes down to who shes playing/match ups you know.
Maybe, but she never had the kind of WTF losses on clay that she had on grass, even in her second career. Her serve was more exposed on grass and she was more susceptible to being blown away by a variety of players. If she hadn't got injured before the French in 1997 had won that final against Majoli and then run out of gas against Novotna and not taken that second set - we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Rebound Ace was clearly her best surface by light years though.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:07 PM   #194
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
Maybe, but she never had the kind of WTF losses on clay that she had on grass, even in her second career. Her serve was more exposed on grass and she was more susceptible to being blown away by a variety of players. If she hadn't got injured before the French in 1997 had won that final against Majoli and then run out of gas against Novotna and not taken that second set - we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Rebound Ace was clearly her best surface by light years though.
That 1997 french open...injury wasn't a factor. Majoli was too good. Hingis was a bit off - that 3 set match against monica probably took a lot out of her. Oh and yeh not arguing with you about rebound ace. She's one of the best hardcourters. She was also great on in-doors and carpet too! Medium to fast pace surfaces suited her. Not too fast (grass) and no too slow (clay). Although your right - she's better on clay. She definitely should have won 1999 french and hingis felt as though she should have beaten peirce in 2000 (I've never seen the match). Had she won she probably would have beaten conchita.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #195
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Smitten View Post
I always love this.

Cause it's amazing how Davenport never catches any flack for her measly three slams that she won in the same period Legend was winning hers.

It's always the same press fucks in a thread about Legend.

Legend was not overrated. She was lazy and unmotivated which led to her failing to improve and build on the early success of her career.
Exactly the reason why she is overrated and deserves to be underrated.
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