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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #151
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Do you consider Rebound Ace its own "surface"? It certainly played nothing like other hard-courts. 6 straight AO finals is one of her greatest achievements; how many RG finals did Henin make, consecutively or not?
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #152
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Wozniacki was #1 because the best player (Serena) did not play a full schedule. Same with Safina. Better players played incomplete schedules.
The best player last year or atleast the one who had by far the best year was Petra Kvitova, and she did play a full schedule, and while one flaw of her year was she was inconsistent so was Wozniacki who ended the year with an even worse win %, and ridiculously ended #2 behind the much much weaker year by the computerized year end #1 Caroline Wozniacki. Under the old divisor system Kvitova probably would have been ahead by well over a thousand points.

Quote:
If you are the best player and play a full schedule, then you will be #1.
Obviously not true as Hingis in 1998, Davenport in 1999, Venus in 2001, Clijsters in 2005, Kvitova in 2011, are just some examples of players who were clearly the best those years, did play what most would regard as a "full schedule" and still ended #2 or lower under the ridiculous newer ranking system which regardless what your opinion might be has been ridiculed and criticized by the masses since its conception.

The only examples of players who were the best that year but did not end #1 since they did not play enough are Henin in 2004, Clijsters and Serena in 2011, Venus in 2000, and maybe Serena in 2003 (depending if you think Henin or Serena was the best player that year, but with Serena's injury Henin had the best year regardless anyway). Those cases their not ending #1 despite being the best player in the World at the time, and often having the greatest year as far as big wins and meaningful success, can be somewhat understand but not in many others, like the ones I listed in the paragraph above. Meanwhile the only players who were truly the best players who ended #1 since 1998 were Serena in 2002, Henin in 2003, Henin in 2006, Henin in 2007, Serena in 2009. Quite a short list for 15 years, and that is a problem.

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The rest of your posts and most of your posts in this thread are irrelevant.
Based on my unfortunate brief encounters with you since joining, the same probably applies to any of your posts you have ever made on this forum. You seem to be about the most unpopular poster here I might add, I never go in a thread that people arent ringing your neck about something you said.

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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 11:50 PM   #153
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
The best player last year or atleast the one who had by far the best year was Petra Kvitova, and she did play a full schedule, and while one flaw of her year was she was inconsistent ....
Kvitova has still never spent one second at #1. So stop the nonsense! There was one ranking system for every player, and Kvitova has yet to be #1, same for Radwanska.They're both very talented players, each with an excellent Wimbledon.But they are not #1's, and there's plenty of pressure getting to #1, and staying there.Hingis was great at that. Kvitova, not yet
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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 11:55 PM   #154
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Sammo View Post
She's 30 times more talented than Serena and has 3 times less Grand Slams, so

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Old Sep 25th, 2012, 11:58 PM   #155
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Kvitova has still never spent one second at #1.
Yes despite clearly having the best year by a HUGE margin in 2011 she did not spend at week as computerized #1 but in everyones eyes was the real #1 of 2011 hence why she won every Player of the Year award to go with all her prized and huge trophies for year, and the computerized #1 got nothing but plastic flowers to go with a few tiny trophies. Are you actually trying to make a point about something since it escapes me. Have a nice day.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:02 AM   #156
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Hingis has even record against Williams sisters...

If you want to look for single player who put Hingis in the pastures, it was Capriati. The idea that "power" as such was something particularly troublesome for Martina is a myth.
True...Hingis' H-2-H with both Serena and Venus are fairly even.
However, taking their meetings separately...

Serena's game had just begun its upward momentum by the time Hingis left. And Serena was no longer affected by Hingis' game.
As proof, I offer their last four meetings where Serena had a 3-1 H2H.
And in the last two of three of those matches, Serena won in fairly commanding fashion.
In the the last match, Serena served Hingis a bagel.
That being the case, it's clear that at that point, Serena completely understood Hingis' game, and that Hingis was rendered ineffective against Serena.

Venus also held 3-1 H2H against Hingis in their last 4 games (1on hard court, and 2 on clay).
And clay is where Hingis' game style should eclipse Venus'...but didn't.

I only present the above to demonstrate that H2Hs can be used to argue in so many ways.
And, btw, I chose their last four meetings because this was during all three player's dominant period.
Hingis was still presented as the "master tactician genius", and Venus and Serena...the "athletic bashers" of the game.

Fact is, Capriati won the last 4 matches in a roll before Hingis retired.
And if you look closely at Hingis' last 7 slam appearances, in which she only won 1 title (1999 AO against Amelie Mauresmo), every single match she lost involved a Big Babe tennis player.
Now, that alone has gotta prove the point that she just couldn't compete with the big hitters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timariot View Post
Nothing wrong with Hingis' serve, really. Her second serve was pretty poor, but she had a good first serve with usually high percentage (~70). I don't understand S&V comment, she seldom played S & V. What did Hingis in was quite simply burnout - she played a lot in her teens and unlike SOME #1 players, she loved all that representing, charities etc committments. It was taxing life and she couldn't maintain it. If you look at Hingis at ~2001-2002, and compare to that of ther peak few years earlier, it's so obvious how much she had declined as a player - movement gone, loopy short forehand, no longer taking any risks with her first serve.
If their is nothing wrong with Hingis' serve, then her second serve shouldn't be a problem either.
Yet you just admitted that her second serve was "pretty poor".
But here's the question...
If you are using her 70% first serve effectiveness as an argument, then how did she do against great returners like Capriati, Venus, Davenport, and Serena? I'm willing to bet that her first serve percentage against these four was far below that 70%.
Davenport was a great server; Venus was a great server; and Serena an even greater server during that period against the big babes.

No "myths" were involved with these facts.

And...
You can't use the 'she was burned out' excuse, because it was her choice to play an ungodly number of events to maintain her #1 ranking.
Lastly, she lost her last 5 Grand Slams against the Big Babes.
That isn't GOAT-like statistics by anyone's measuring stick, and it certainly doesn't support the idea that her serve was affective against the Big Babes either..

Look, I'm no fan of Hingis' but I respect that she accomplished what she accomplished.
But to inflate her accomplishments does no one any good.
Her record speaks for itself...and it's a good record. Let's not embellish it.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:02 AM   #157
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Originally Posted by mistymore
...having the best year by a HUGE margin in 2011...

Kvitova won a major, while Serena was just coming back from a major health issue, lost to Bartoli that major, and Kvitova never got to #1.
Thats the best year by a HUGE margin to you?
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #158
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Kvitova has still never spent one second at #1. So stop the nonsense! There was one ranking system for every player, and Kvitova has yet to be #1, same for Radwanska.They're both very talented players, each with an excellent Wimbledon.But they are not #1's, and there's plenty of pressure getting to #1, and staying there.Hingis was great at that. Kvitova, not yet
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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Originally Posted by mistymore
...having the best year by a HUGE margin in 2011...

Kvitova won a major, while Serena was just coming back from a major health issue, lost to Bartoli that major, and Kvitova never got to #1.
Thats the best year by a HUGE margin to you?
Believe whatever you want
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #159
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Originally Posted by mistymore
...having the best year by a HUGE margin in 2011...

Kvitova won a major, while Serena was just coming back from a major health issue, lost to Bartoli that major, and Kvitova never got to #1.
Thats the best year by a HUGE margin to you?
Believe whatever you want
6 titles (not even including Fed Cup title), Wimbledon title, WTA Year End title, Fed Cup title, titles on all surfaces. Yes that was by far the best year of anyone in 2011, and the year every other player on WTA would have much rather had than their own. Obviously the WTA, ITF, Tennis Magazine, and everyone else agrees as everyone of them picked Petra Kvitova as the Player of the Year, with not even one picking or giving that award for 2011 to someone else instead. Who had a year even close to that. Name me one player, and this should be good.

Also your point about Serena just coming back is stupid. By that logic all that someone like Wozniacki won in early 2011 means absolutely nothing since Serena wasnt even playing then.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:11 AM   #160
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

I think Stosur is satisfied with winning a US Open beating the huge favorite, Serena in the final.
Kim won a major and got to #1. Li won a major beating the toughest draw any slam winner went thru in 2011.
And anyone rational is still going to say Serena during the USO series was playing the best tennis of 2011
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #161
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

I actually think history has judged her pretty fairly. She was the fourth best player of her generation, but it's the equivalent of the middleweight champ winning the heavyweight championship, and then defending it multiple times. Her hands were soft as a newborn's kiss, her anticipation was ridiculous, and she set up points better than anybody I've seen in a long time.

She just about all there was to get out of being a lesser athlete than the best of her peers. But she WAS a lesser athlete. And once the tour figured out to just hit it hard from corner to corner, and not let her play chess with them, there wasn't much she could do about it. She was also, no offense to V&S, the best individual doubles player since Nav. She won slams with four different partners. She was slams with Kournikova, who couldn't win a Tier V on her own.

I sure didn't like her when she was in Venus' way, but as soon as she was gone, I felt the loss. Tennis hasn't seen anybody like that since. She wasn't an all-time great by any means, but she'll likely be judged as better than Clijsters and Davenport, less than Venus and Henin. Seems about right.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #162
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
Hingis retired 5 years ago but effectively retired from being a top player 10 years ago. I promise you that the vast majority of posters on GM were not watching tennis 5 years ago. Yet, the discussion continues.

As far as Henin is concerned, she had unconventional technique but a straight-foward game. I really doubt people will miss anything about Justine, except for those that have a particular fondness for one-handed backhands.

It is obvious most people here will not miss Justine, but the reasons for that are numerous, unrelated to her game and its relevance to her era, and are better left un-enumerated.

As for HIngis, she became such a well-known name not overwhelmingly because of her game (more on that hype later), like you suggest, but because she was young, fresh-faced and brash and yes, a superb player.

Her game: I always cringe when people wax eloquent about her 'court sense', tactics blah blah. She looked awesome owning some of her pigeons (and I find it hilarious Seles ended being one of those) but lets dispense with the B.S. about her reinventing the game. She lacked punch, so she took the ball early and could hit some cute shots. IT wasn't like she served ( ) and volleyed, sliced and diced and mixed up topspin with drives (couldn't really do either that effectively). I will concede she was a very smart player and maximized the potential SHE SHOWED over the years (i.e. who knows what would have happened if she improved her serve and forehand and fitness). That's about it.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #163
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I think Stosur is satisfied with winning a US Open beating the huge favorite, Serena in the final.
Kim won a major and got to #1. Li won a major beating the toughest draw any slam winner went thru in 2011.
And anyone rational is still going to say Serena during the USO series was playing the best tennis of 2011
OK so you think Stosur, Kim, or Na had a better year in 2011 than Petra Kvitova, and would not trade their own years for Petra's if they could in a heartbeat. Continue living in your dream World. Atleast you didnt say Wozniacki had the best year though as I expected you would. I guess there is only so much you can take making a fool of yourself, and even you have limits.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:19 AM   #164
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Volcana View Post
I actually think history has judged her pretty fairly. She was the fourth best player of her generation, but it's the equivalent of the middleweight champ winning the heavyweight championship, and then defending it multiple times. Her hands were soft as a newborn's kiss, her anticipation was ridiculous, and she set up points better than anybody I've seen in a long time.

She just about all there was to get out of being a lesser athlete than the best of her peers. But she WAS a lesser athlete. And once the tour figured out to just hit it hard from corner to corner, and not let her play chess with them, there wasn't much she could do about it. She was also, no offense to V&S, the best individual doubles player since Nav. She won slams with four different partners. She was slams with Kournikova, who couldn't win a Tier V on her own.

I sure didn't like her when she was in Venus' way, but as soon as she was gone, I felt the loss. Tennis hasn't seen anybody like that since. She wasn't an all-time great by any means, but she'll likely be judged as better than Clijsters and Davenport, less than Venus and Henin. Seems about right.
Slightly OT: why do people consider Hingis to be part of the Williams/Belgian generation? For me, when a player peaked is more important in determining what generation a player is part of rather than age, and considering Graf won her last Slam after Hingis won her last Slam (unbelievable though that sounds), I would say Hingis should be considered part of the Graf/Seles Generation.
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Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #165
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Slightly OT: why do people consider Hingis to be part of the Williams/Belgian generation? For me, when a player peaked is more important in determining what generation a player is part of rather than age, and considering Graf won her last Slam after Hingis won her last Slam (unbelievable though that sounds), I would say Hingis should be considered part of the Graf/Seles Generation.
Hingis wasnt really part of either the Graf/Seles era or the Williams/Belgian one. She and Davenport were the transition era. They won all their slams after aging Graf and early peaking/declining Seles had won their last (minus a late French for Graf), and before Venus/Serena won any of theirs (Lindsay won 1 last Aussie immediately after Serena won her 1st of now 15 slams). However as they were truly part of neither era, they are morphed mainly into the Williams/Belgian era as those players are a bit closer in age overall (well atleast to Hingis they certainly are) and Hingis battled the Williams for a few years near the top, and Davenport battled all 4 players near the top for years, despite both being shut out of winning any slams once those 4 superior players emerged.
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